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Thread: Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact?

  1. #81
    Member Handler in Training's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Franco;1170984]
    Quote Originally Posted by Handler in Training View Post

    Focusing on a single trait is a poor choice, I agree. And, breedong carriers for FT might improve once chanes of taking home more ribbons.

    But, looking at the breed in general, in what the breed is intended for, I'm not buying into breeding carriers is improving the breed.

    Again, FT is a speciality game just as Bench is a speciality game. Both represent opposite extremes and breeding for those extreme's may make one more competitve. But, at what price does the breed suffer in playing games which was never the original intent of the breed?.
    Haven't heard anyone saying to breed carriers for field trials. What I'm hearing is that we can't just "cold turkey" remove every carrier from our breeding stock without doing a huge disservice to the breed. The fact that we can test for this trait helps us to eliminate affecteds. The rest will be great hunters, trialers, testers, and companions (with a little bit of luck and proper training of course). Most importanly though, as healthy as we can control. I think Tammy pointed out that there are something like 20,000 potential genetic disorders that we can't test for, at this time. Being able to eliminate affecteds through testing and proper breeding should be every breeders goal.

    Through many years of responsible breeding, this disease could potentially be eliminated. Eliminating it abruptly and so dramatically by reducing potential sires and dams due to carrier status would be no more responsible than ignoring it altogether.
    Eric Webb

  2. #82
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    First of all, I have never condemed FT's! If anythng I have served as an officer for two clubs and have contributed a lot of time and money to thier developent! And, I approciate the level of work at the AA level.

    Bad luck, yes. The last 4 pups I've purchased have been dysplastic. The one I thought could win, though OFA Good, became dysplastic at 5 years.

    Those in the know can avoid breeding affecteds. What about the others who will continue to produce affecteds? I'll differ with you that the FT group is the most concerned with health and soundness. Just look at all the high profiled dogs in the past that where known dysplastic and/or produced a high number of dysplastic offspring because it gave them the best chance of winning a speaciality game.
    The remarkable reduced incidence of hip dysphasia, which has benefitted all breeds of dogs, was begun by retriever field trial enthusiasts, competitors, and breeders led by August Belmont Jr. The last dysplastic dog who lived on these premises was born in 1978, he was unilaterally dysplastic, a Field Champion, and retired from competition at 6, not because of his hip but because of the affects of Ehrlichiosis on his pelvic arteries. Nevertheless he hunted ducks until he was 11 and probably saved my life in an airboat sinking in 20 degree weather. I have shared my home, life, and hunted with many FC/AFCs and 2 National Champions. Your argument is flawed and you continue to veil your contributions to animal health by condemning the breeding practices of others.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Wow someone's really out in left field here

  4. #84
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    The remarkable reduced incidence of hip dysphasia, which has benefitted all breeds of dogs, was begun by retriever field trial enthusiasts, competitors, and breeders led by August Belmont Jr. The last dysplastic dog who lived on these premises was born in 1978, he was unilaterally dysplastic, a Field Champion, and retired from competition at 6, not because of his hip but because of the affects of Ehrlichiosis on his pelvic arteries. Nevertheless he hunted ducks until he was 11 and probably saved my life in an airboat sinking in 20 degree weather. I have shared my home, life, and hunted with many FC/AFCs and 2 National Champions. Your argument is flawed and you continue to veil your contributions to animal health by condemning the breeding practices of others.


    Again, as I wrote in my first post on this thread, quality breeders are not trying to improve the breed. Thay are trying to maintain the breed's integrity. Not change it by what they call "improving". It may improve the breed for FT's but ceratinly not in general. That is true of all breeders that breed for a "speciality" whether it be Field or Bench. They will overlook issues in hopes of producing that speaciality winner to win at their extreme sport. And, like I said earlier in this thread, if FT are your game, then buy a clear or carrier, if you think that is what it takes. But, don't pass it off under the guise of improving a breed that has its origins as a hunting retriever and needs no "improvement" as stated by what constitutes a Lab under the AKC. If anything, breeders should be working to maintain The Standard and the integrity of The Standard of the Labrador Retriever!
    Last edited by Franco; 12-15-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery. Calvin Coolidge



  5. #85
    Member Mark AB's Avatar
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    Ok ... not field Trial'er and new to the game. But I dont see how FT'ers are the issue?? I looked at the puppy for sale section on this site and stopped looking after 20+ and everyone has an good OFA. I pulled the pegree of two of my dogs and going back 5 generations and they all have OFA. The issue I think is the back yard / barnyard breeder. My other girl was bought when i did not have a clue about anything from a backyard breeder. No OFA .. guess what .. she came back "moderate" so she's spayed and still a great family member and a great hunting dog. I let the breeded know about my pup and she didn't care. But when i went lookign for another pup; every pup i looked with a FT or HT background had OFA good or excelelnt. So from my perspective as beeing somewhat new, the FT/HT folks have been the most responsable ...??!!
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  6. #86
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    [/COLOR]
    Again, as I wrote in my first post on this thread, quality breeders are not trying to improve the breed. Thay are trying to maintain the breed's integrity. Not change it by what they call "improving". It may improve the breed for FT's but ceratinly not in general. That is true of all breeders that breed for a "speciality" whether it be Field or Bench. They will overlook issues in hopes of producing that speaciality winner to win at their extreme sport. And, like I said earlier in this thread, if FT are your game, then buy a clear or carrier, if you think that is what it takes. But, don't pass it off under the guise of improving a breed that has its origins as a hunting retriever!
    Keep posting and editing your responses but do not expect to get in the last word on your assertions, you are wrong and I will never give you the satisfaction of the last post. Despite a preponderance of scientific and anecdotal evidence to the contrary you continue to focus on a single trait and you continue to ignore the great strides in eliminating genetic diseases in dogs that have occurred in the last 50 years.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Keep posting and editing your responses but do not expect to get in the last word on your assertions, you are wrong and I will never give you the satisfaction of the last post. Despite a preponderance of scientific and anecdotal evidence to the contrary you continue to focus on a single trait and you continue to ignore the great strides in eliminating genetic diseases in dogs that have occurred in the last 50 years.
    I will add to my post rather than adding a new one.

    I'm not focused on a single trait. I'm just not buying into this "improving the breed" business. The Standard is already in place and I have zero desire to change it.

    I don't have to have the last word, never have.

    Post away.
    Last edited by Franco; 12-15-2013 at 02:49 PM.
    Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery. Calvin Coolidge



  8. #88
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Go watch your really good football team with 2 coaches dumbass JJ let get away! Go Saints!

  9. #89
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Go watch your really good football team with 2 coaches dumbass JJ let get away! Go Saints!
    Now you see, I really didn't want to go there. But, since you've brought it up, do you know what kind of booze Jerry likes? I was going to send him a gallon for the holidays thanking him for Sean and Rob Really like my QB too, born and raised in west La. right?
    Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery. Calvin Coolidge



  10. #90
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Now you see, I really didn't want to go there. But, since you've brought it up, do you know what kind of booze Jerry likes? I was going to send him a gallon for the holidays thanking him for Sean and Rob Really like my QB too, born and raised in west La. right?
    JJ is a dumbass Arkansas hillbilly snake oil salesman who knows how to make money but who is unaware of his own deficiencies including the ability to complete an intelligible sentence, send him a bottle of moonshine, that's his style face lift notwithstanding.

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