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Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact?

34K views 138 replies 60 participants last post by  mwk56 
#1 ·
Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact on the breed for the future of Field Trials and Hunt Tests? Over the past few years several people stated they felt the ignorance regarding EIC carrier status was getting better. In my experience, I feel it is getting much worse. I am grateful there is a test for CNM and EIC to prevent affecteds. Since the CNM and EIC tests came out, many outstanding studs being used and starting to show promise of being good producers came to a screeching halt for breeding. Many top performers are hardly being bred simply because of carrier status… I am one of the few breeders who breed clear females to carrier studs. Simple reason, I want to produce quality, not catering to the ignorant! I fear too many breeders are not doing their homework and settling on convenience. The majority of the best performers and producers are carriers. If we are eliminating our best performers and producers we are not improving the breed!
 
#2 · (Edited)
In some ways yes because of the uninformed. I bought an EIC carrier pup because of the breeding.She has finished 50% of the derbies she ran. It's too bad when you don't see fantastic dogs being bred because they are a carrier. I bred clear to clear because of marketablility.It was still a wonderful breeding. The next breeding may be to a carrier ( may be to CNFC,CNAFC stud).I have an EIC affected at home that will be 12.So no predjudice here.
BTW congratulations on Lexie. I have watched her run a few times here in the Pac NW. She's special. I also watched Willie back in the day too.
 
#3 ·
I think there may have been and may still be an overreaction--certainly on every thread it comes up many folks here say that they would only get a clear. That is silly to me, but it is their dog.

Logically, if the better performers and producers are being ignored by some breeders because they are carriers yet some smart breeders, like yourself, are using them, then the results will eventually be seen in the placements. If so, I think the trend will change quickly.

I have no idea if what you say is true or not--most folks I know would be happy with a carrier. As one who doesn't have access to the top breedings, if a really good one came up and someone said I could have one if I took a carrier, I would be all over it.
 
#4 ·
As a breeder I try to keep only clear bitches so that I can breed to whatever stud I choose. We have gone to carrier males for our last 2 breeding's. We sell most of our pups as gun dogs and some ht dogs. Our buyers don't have a problem buying a carrier pup at all.
 
#5 ·
Sometimes public opinion takes a while to overcome. There will be a time when a male carrier is the sire of a champion or two and the public opinion will change. I for one was misinformed at the beginning of EIC confirmation but have since changed my opinion. Proof is I purchased a clear sire to a carrier bitch and am comfortable with that decision. Once tested and if my female proves to be satisfactory I would have no problem breeding her to the right carrier is she is clear.

BTW sire of a NFC or two.
 
#6 ·
Interesting thread, I'd like to add to the discussion by asking. What affect testing litters and allowing buyers the option of picking clear or carrier pups out of breedings, is having on this anti-carrier push. I myself refuse to test my litters, I setup my breedings to produce the whole dog, and while guaranteeing an unaffected puppy, I don't like the idea that the most talented pups might be discounted before they ever see a bird. I've had many buyers gawk at this but if the breeding isn't good enough that you'd want a pup regardless of one gene, I'm not doing my job as a breeder, and if that's stopping point for a buyer, they are not the type of buyer I need for one of my pups. I have two pups right now, just turned 1yr. they are doing well, I have no idea of their EIC status, 50% either way, but they are both the type of dog I want, they'll both be train and ran, and later on if worthy they might be bred, regardless of whether they turn out carrier or not.
 
#8 ·
I agree and disagree. I test my carrier litters. My goal is to have EIC out of my kennel in 3 generations or less. So if I have 3 females and 2 are clear and I like them as good as the carrier I will keep the clears. On my carrier litters I always seem to have 3-4 people who have no intentions on breeding so I save them $200-$300 and sell them carriers. Everyone is happy and we know we are producing clear pups.

Now I may breed my FC AFC Shaq bitch who is QAA and is running all age stakes to FC AFC Ali. I will test and hope even FT homes will want to buy carriers.
 
#9 ·
There is a prejudice out there for carrier's. Even with those that understand the carrier status. Most of it revolves around the market for puppies. Personally, I would have no problem owning a carrier female. But, I would be reluctant to own a carrier male, for the reasons outlined above.
 
#12 ·
It seems that the people that are the most worried about carrier status are people that are mainly worried about breeding. Doesn't the dog have to add something to the breed before you decide to have pups out of it? Would you rather have a slug of a female that is clear or a very talented female that is a carrier? My point is, that you don't know what kind of a dog you have until it's through the program, so why would your main concern when getting a puppy be if it's clear or carrier? Just my .02
 
#15 ·
Do you know they will make it through the program if they are carriers? They need to cut their weight no matter their EIC status.

Would I buy a EIC carrier sure you bet! I had the privilege of buying a NFC Pete pup. When asked if I had interest in a yellow female I said "HELL YEAH!!" I didn't ask about her EIC status until after we decided we wanted her. I think many people would pick the best pup when given the chance.

Our litter this summer had both carriers and clears. Some cared about EIC but only two out of 8 asked before they picked their pups. One who asked is a well known FT couple who had pick male and the other was a FT Pro buying a prospect to raise and train for a client. A couple of the hunting folks that picked pups were happy when I told them they save a couple hundred dollars by picking the pup they did.
 
#18 ·
Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact on the breed for the future of Field Trials and Hunt Tests?
YES, but it will have more of an impact on the Labrador breed and their natural hunting ability than Field Trials or Hunt tests. FT and HT are where the natural instincts and trainability are proven for all to see.

We have just cut our breeding pool in half. My proof.....where are breedings out of the following wonderful dogs who are at the top of the Open All-Age point list?

FC AFC RAGIN EYE OF THE STORM
FC FOXHAVEN'S BORN TO RUN MH
FC AFC TEALCREEK PATTON'S SABER
FC AFC ROBBER'S STRAY BULLET

Just look at the puppy listings. What a shame these wonderful performance, team players are not being reproduced. I am keeping a clear female from my breeding just so I can breed to one!

It is a sad day when EIC status is more important than eyes and elbows, not to mention marking, trainability, intelligence, looks and size etc.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Just a few thoughts:
We don't know for sure if the dogs Tammy listed are not getting bred because they are carriers. Could be, but who really knows.
I for one would breed to any of those dogs if I felt they would nick well with my Bitchline.
I had 1st choice of a pup when I bred my bitch to Ali - I kept a carrier because it was the pup I liked the best( Litter had 2 carriers & 5 clears).
In two breedings to two carrier sire's I have not had one person ask me if they were getting a carrier or clear pup.
They liked the breeding and are or were hoping to get a a pup that can be successful. I did test and told them after they had picked a pup.
2nd litter all went to FT homes and again all just are hoping to have one that will play the game.
The AI vet I use who is a retired Reproductive College Vet, developed CC the clone cat, said we are going to do more damage by getting rid of the carriers-
When you limit the gene pool you will have other serious problems develop , Look at the problems that Goldens have with a limited gene pool.
With the EIC test we can breed responsible and keep the excellent traits that the carrier dogs have whether male or female.
I am getting ready to bred my young bitch to Ali. I have trained with him and love everything about him and most importantly he has proven to
nick well with my bitchline and that is super important to me. I love Cane and Bullet who I have watched compete, but just not sure how the pedigree's match- one doesn't for sure, so going with the known. Have not seen the other two, but know they have great records. This is an age old argument and I just hope and pray that people will do what is best for the breed and keep the carriers and clears coming so we don't destroy the gene pool.
 
#29 ·
AWESOME post Syl!!!
A few years back, before all of the tests, I bred my MH Stepper bitch Dancy (CNM carrier) to Cosmo (EIC carrier) with some success. Someone asked me just the other day, "if Dancy were still alive today would you still consider breeding her to Cosmo"? My response was, "YES...I may have to keep all of the puppies though"!!!
 
#22 ·
Top 14 Producing Sires and top producing Dam of all time:

2XNAFC 2XCNAFC FC Ebonstar Lean Mac 158 Titled Offspring - EIC Carrier
NFC AFC San Joaquin Honcho 76 Titled Offspring - ?
NAFC FC Trumarc’s Zip Code 62 Titled Offspring - ?
NFC NAFC Candlewoods Super Tanker - CNM Carrier
FC AFC Wilderness Harley To Go 51 Titled Offspring - EIC Carrier
FC AFC Dare To Dream 46 Titled Offspring - EIC Carrier
FC AFC CAFC Chena River Chavez 41 Titled Offspring- ?
FC AFC Webshire’s Honest Abe 41 Titled Offspring- ?
FC AFC Trieven Thunderhead 40 Titled Offspring - ?
Super Powder QAA 39 Titled Offspring - ?
NFC 2XNAFC Super Chief 38 Titled Offspring - ?
FC AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit 36 Titled Offspring - ?
NFC AFC Clubmead’s Road Warrior 33 - CNM and EIC Clear
FC AFC Creek Robber 32 - EIC Carrier

3XNFC AFC Candlewoods Tanks A Lot 22 Titled Offspring - CNM Carrier

Most dogs were deceased before CNM and EIC test were available. Try finding many successful Field Trial dogs without Maxx, Harley or Lottie in the pedigree.

Try looking up the dogs with 100+ All Age points. Many are Carriers, some EIC affected.
 
#23 ·
OMG I forgot the other important factors for which there is no test or clearances that MUST be considered. Cruciate injuries and cryptorchidism.....all inheritable traits. So what are your criteria for a GOOD BREEDING??????

FC AFC
Hips
Elbows
Eyes
EIC Carrier - non issue
CNM Carrier - non issue
cruciate tear before the age of 7 - no test -issue IMHO
cryptorchidism - NOT BREEDABLE
Bad attitude - aggressive - issue male and especially female - No reason to reproduce

Anything else breeders? What is your code of ethics?????
 
#25 ·
Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact on the breed for the future of Field Trials and Hunt Tests? Over the past few years several people stated they felt the ignorance regarding EIC carrier status was getting better. In my experience, I feel it is getting much worse. I am grateful there is a test for CNM and EIC to prevent affecteds. Since the CNM and EIC tests came out, many outstanding studs being used and starting to show promise of being good producers came to a screeching halt for breeding. Many top performers are hardly being bred simply because of carrier status… I am one of the few breeders who breed clear females to carrier studs. Simple reason, I want to produce quality, not catering to the ignorant! I fear too many breeders are not doing their homework and settling on convenience. The majority of the best performers and producers are carriers. If we are eliminating our best performers and producers we are not improving the breed!
I am glad that there are people who have these criteria No. 1!!! I'm screaming that so that it gets read and, hopefully, believed.

My concern, though, is a bit more general. I think the folks who breed for trials and tests are probably doing just fine. I'm worried about the trial and/or test and/or hunting and/or other suitable performance dog that is also a really nice companion and strongly moderate (if that makes sense) example of the breed.

What, really, is a Lab? Quiet, good-natured, easy-going, willing to couch-surf a bit if life gets too crazy to train or test/trial 5 days a week, fun/can play/has a sense of humor and interacts, sensitive as a pet, clean-mannered, generally strong constitution, good with kids (because even though everyone knows not to leave a big dog with a little kid, little kids and dogs still find each other alone by accident sometim es), good with strangers at the door, handsome, sound, moderately-sized but with a likable range available if that's an issue (if you're old, weak, strong but small, etc.--55 pounds to 80-ish)... AND birdy, driven, tractable/trainable, not overly sensitive, not overly independent, good nose, good marker, etc.--all the hunting, testing, trial stuff too.

I am "luvalab" because I love Labs--not field trial or hunt test prospects, though now that I'm hooked, that's (also) what I will want from my next Lab.

EIC ignorance and overconcern isn't going to affect the elite--it's going to affect the quality middle, the quality moderate, the Renaissance Dog aspect of the Lab--which IMO makes the Lab the Lab.

Sometimes the Middle is where it's at.
 
#30 ·
At least one on Tammy's list has a VERY low sperm count.

As far as personality, like Tammy said, ask questions. It doesn't take long for the word to get around about who is a fighter, noisy on line, etc. At the National, I talked to the trainer of one of my bitch's dams and to the owner of her sire. I had never met either one of them before, but they were very forthcoming about the personalities, work ethic, etc. Most don't mind "talking dog" if they're in it. I did talk to one owner of one on Tammy's list that doesn't really know much about the dogs, said to ask the trainer everything including stud fee, live cover/side-by-side, EIC status, etc. If you can get out to a field trial and watch, if the owner/trainer isn't busy, most are more than willing to talk to you.

Right now, I have two intact clear/clear, two EIC carriers, one that could be EIC out of one of my now spayed EIC carriers (was only puppy, haven't tested yet), one that could be a CNM carrier out of my clear/clear bitch that we bred to an AFC CNM carrier, and another puppy that is possibly an EIC carrier from an FC AFC MH stud. Yes, I would "prefer" all clear because it would open up my choices on the studs. I have tested litters, like mentioned on a previous post, I've sold them to hunting/pet homes at a reduced price since they had no intention of breeding them. When I test a litter, I also post the whole litter's results on OFA...if I'm keeping one, if I don't have a batch to send in, it's going to cost me $15 anyway, the whole litter only costs $30. Now that it's required for CHIC, that's saving the owners some money, too.
 
#36 ·
At least one on Tammy's list has a VERY low sperm count.
There is also another very well known NFC and widely used sire with low sperm count which I learned of from my vet. I think this is why there are no more breedings out of him, but I'm not sure on that count.

Good list plus allergies! I always ask about allergies and wouldn't breed to one with them.
Mike, I was going to put allergies, but I sold a puppy several years ago which I learned developed allergies. Neither my bitch nor the very well known NAFC sire whose been bred out the whazoo had allergies. I'm not so sure that allergies aren't environmental or auto-immune type thing. The owner still said that she didn't intend to breed her because of it.

One thing I'd like to change in my description of a worthy sire is the FC AFC part. There are many MNH's and GRHRCH MH's out there that are excellent candidates. Also any dog who has multiple titles in various venues, ie; upland hunting, hunt tests, field trials, super retriever series etc. That to me shows high intelligence and trainability.

This is a great thread. Thank you Brandon for addressing this very important issue right now. Before we simply had the popular sire of the month, but now that has been multiplied by 2 since only half of the sires are being utilized.
 
#31 ·
I've also had "pet" owners that didn't want a carrier because they "had the disease"...
 
#39 ·
This is a result of poor science education. I learned Mendelian genetics in Junior high (Catholic school). Is this no longer taught?
 
#42 ·
I was just having this conversation with a buddy that's going to breed his AA-Q bitch who is concerned about the whole clear to carrier deal and my first question was who is your target buyer, and what is your breeding purpose? FT dogs, HT dogs, Gun dogs, etc. When you get down to brass tax FT's have one major purpose....breeding! Of course that's not all we enjoy of the game but its one of the major driving forces of the game. I personally feel the HT breeders are the most concerned with breeding clear/clear. You don't have a pedigree that says NFC x FC AFC. I once made the analogy that EiC/CNM was no different than color factoring when matching potential studs to a bitch, I still feel its very similar. AAnd there are prominent field trialers that only buy from the carrier bloodlines because it took 100+ years to produce the field trial Labrador of today and now were going to eliminate some of the best stock because of a silly thing we can breed around? I don't get it myself and don't think many field trialers pass up carrier litters if it's the breeding they want, especially if the bitch has letters infront of her name;)
 
#46 ·
What about breeding carrier to carrier?

If you sell/give the affecteds to people who strictly want pets and are looking for a good companion?

I've only seen 2 affected dogs, that I'm aware of, in my life. One is an AFC and the other is a SH. They both looked very pleased to be alive and generally acted as other dogs who I know to be carriers and clear.
 
#48 ·
You have apparently only seen 2 mildly affected, I have seen quite a few more severely affected, if you had seen what I have seen you would never consider the option of producing affected dogs.
 
#47 ·
almost two years ago i had a choice of two pups from a very nice nafc x fc litter. the breeder told me one of the pups was a cnm carrier and the other was clear. i asked the breeder not to tell me which was which until i had selected my puppy. i chose the carrier pup. i own a very talented young dog that has a bright future. i wouldn't trade him for anything......i would sell him to a good ft home though if anyone is interested!;-)
 
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