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Thread: Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact?

  1. #21
    Senior Member jollydog's Avatar
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    Just a few thoughts:
    We don't know for sure if the dogs Tammy listed are not getting bred because they are carriers. Could be, but who really knows.
    I for one would breed to any of those dogs if I felt they would nick well with my Bitchline.
    I had 1st choice of a pup when I bred my bitch to Ali - I kept a carrier because it was the pup I liked the best( Litter had 2 carriers & 5 clears).
    In two breedings to two carrier sire's I have not had one person ask me if they were getting a carrier or clear pup.
    They liked the breeding and are or were hoping to get a a pup that can be successful. I did test and told them after they had picked a pup.
    2nd litter all went to FT homes and again all just are hoping to have one that will play the game.
    The AI vet I use who is a retired Reproductive College Vet, developed CC the clone cat, said we are going to do more damage by getting rid of the carriers-
    When you limit the gene pool you will have other serious problems develop , Look at the problems that Goldens have with a limited gene pool.
    With the EIC test we can breed responsible and keep the excellent traits that the carrier dogs have whether male or female.
    I am getting ready to bred my young bitch to Ali. I have trained with him and love everything about him and most importantly he has proven to
    nick well with my bitchline and that is super important to me. I love Cane and Bullet who I have watched compete, but just not sure how the pedigree's match- one doesn't for sure, so going with the known. Have not seen the other two, but know they have great records. This is an age old argument and I just hope and pray that people will do what is best for the breed and keep the carriers and clears coming so we don't destroy the gene pool.
    Last edited by jollydog; 12-10-2013 at 08:01 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Top 14 Producing Sires and top producing Dam of all time:

    2XNAFC 2XCNAFC FC Ebonstar Lean Mac 158 Titled Offspring - EIC Carrier
    NFC AFC San Joaquin Honcho 76 Titled Offspring - ?
    NAFC FC Trumarc’s Zip Code 62 Titled Offspring - ?
    NFC NAFC Candlewoods Super Tanker - CNM Carrier
    FC AFC Wilderness Harley To Go 51 Titled Offspring - EIC Carrier
    FC AFC Dare To Dream 46 Titled Offspring - EIC Carrier
    FC AFC CAFC Chena River Chavez 41 Titled Offspring- ?
    FC AFC Webshire’s Honest Abe 41 Titled Offspring- ?
    FC AFC Trieven Thunderhead 40 Titled Offspring - ?
    Super Powder QAA 39 Titled Offspring - ?
    NFC 2XNAFC Super Chief 38 Titled Offspring - ?
    FC AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit 36 Titled Offspring - ?
    NFC AFC Clubmead’s Road Warrior 33 - CNM and EIC Clear
    FC AFC Creek Robber 32 - EIC Carrier

    3XNFC AFC Candlewoods Tanks A Lot 22 Titled Offspring - CNM Carrier

    Most dogs were deceased before CNM and EIC test were available. Try finding many successful Field Trial dogs without Maxx, Harley or Lottie in the pedigree.

    Try looking up the dogs with 100+ All Age points. Many are Carriers, some EIC affected.

  3. #23
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    OMG I forgot the other important factors for which there is no test or clearances that MUST be considered. Cruciate injuries and cryptorchidism.....all inheritable traits. So what are your criteria for a GOOD BREEDING??????

    FC AFC
    Hips
    Elbows
    Eyes
    EIC Carrier - non issue
    CNM Carrier - non issue
    cruciate tear before the age of 7 - no test -issue IMHO
    cryptorchidism - NOT BREEDABLE
    Bad attitude - aggressive - issue male and especially female - No reason to reproduce

    Anything else breeders? What is your code of ethics?????

  4. #24
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    OMG I forgot the other important factors for which there is no test or clearances that MUST be considered. Cruciate injuries and cryptorchidism.....all inheritable traits. So what are your criteria for a GOOD BREEDING??????

    FC AFC
    Hips
    Elbows
    Eyes
    EIC Carrier - non issue
    CNM Carrier - non issue
    cruciate tear before the age of 7 - no test -issue IMHO
    cryptorchidism - NOT BREEDABLE
    Bad attitude - aggressive - issue male and especially female - No reason to reproduce

    Anything else breeders? What is your code of ethics?????

    thats a good list....
    All my Exes live in Texas

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  5. #25
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Bromley View Post
    Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact on the breed for the future of Field Trials and Hunt Tests? Over the past few years several people stated they felt the ignorance regarding EIC carrier status was getting better. In my experience, I feel it is getting much worse. I am grateful there is a test for CNM and EIC to prevent affecteds. Since the CNM and EIC tests came out, many outstanding studs being used and starting to show promise of being good producers came to a screeching halt for breeding. Many top performers are hardly being bred simply because of carrier status… I am one of the few breeders who breed clear females to carrier studs. Simple reason, I want to produce quality, not catering to the ignorant! I fear too many breeders are not doing their homework and settling on convenience. The majority of the best performers and producers are carriers. If we are eliminating our best performers and producers we are not improving the breed!
    I am glad that there are people who have these criteria No. 1!!! I'm screaming that so that it gets read and, hopefully, believed.

    My concern, though, is a bit more general. I think the folks who breed for trials and tests are probably doing just fine. I'm worried about the trial and/or test and/or hunting and/or other suitable performance dog that is also a really nice companion and strongly moderate (if that makes sense) example of the breed.

    What, really, is a Lab? Quiet, good-natured, easy-going, willing to couch-surf a bit if life gets too crazy to train or test/trial 5 days a week, fun/can play/has a sense of humor and interacts, sensitive as a pet, clean-mannered, generally strong constitution, good with kids (because even though everyone knows not to leave a big dog with a little kid, little kids and dogs still find each other alone by accident sometim es), good with strangers at the door, handsome, sound, moderately-sized but with a likable range available if that's an issue (if you're old, weak, strong but small, etc.--55 pounds to 80-ish)... AND birdy, driven, tractable/trainable, not overly sensitive, not overly independent, good nose, good marker, etc.--all the hunting, testing, trial stuff too.

    I am "luvalab" because I love Labs--not field trial or hunt test prospects, though now that I'm hooked, that's (also) what I will want from my next Lab.

    EIC ignorance and overconcern isn't going to affect the elite--it's going to affect the quality middle, the quality moderate, the Renaissance Dog aspect of the Lab--which IMO makes the Lab the Lab.

    Sometimes the Middle is where it's at.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    OMG I forgot the other important factors for which there is no test or clearances that MUST be considered. Cruciate injuries and cryptorchidism.....all inheritable traits. So what are your criteria for a GOOD BREEDING??????

    FC AFC
    Hips
    Elbows
    Eyes
    EIC Carrier - non issue
    CNM Carrier - non issue
    cruciate tear before the age of 7 - no test -issue IMHO
    cryptorchidism - NOT BREEDABLE
    Bad attitude - aggressive - issue male and especially female - No reason to reproduce

    Anything else breeders? What is your code of ethics?????

    How do you judge the last criteria? What makes a bitch a bitch? A stud a nightmare?

    If you are looking for a pup, or breeding pups, which traits that you see in the sire or dam make you cross them off your list?

    And, how do you find out about these characteristics?

    Dogs got lots of points, is healthy, how do you find out about disposition?

    Out of the loop regards...
    Last edited by mitty; 12-10-2013 at 09:42 PM. Reason: grammar
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  7. #27
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    How do you judge the last criteria? What makes a bitch a bitch? A stud a nightmare?

    If you are looking for a pup, or breeding pups, which traits that you see in the sire or dam make you cross them off your list?

    And, how do you find out about these characteristics?

    Dogs got lots of points, is healthy, how do you find out about disposition?

    Out of the loop regards...
    RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH. Know the dogs you breed to and if you don't know them, ask these questions to the owner, trainer, and competitors.

    I keep notes in my head about all of these traits. I want to know the sire inside and out!! Not just a paper pedigree.....

    If the dog has not been competitive its whole life ask why. What physical problems presented themselves to end their careers early or create gaps in their careers? Realign your priorities. What makes a great dog????

    Performance
    Trainablility
    Disposition
    Conformation
    Health Clearances
    Longevity
    Reproduction
    Knee problems
    Shoulder problems
    Elbow problems
    Hip problems
    Nose
    Thyroid
    Training attitude
    attitude toward other dogs
    looks!
    EIC and CNM clearances are the LEAST of my worries!!

    What you want is a complete package......NOT what it looks like on paper. There is more to it than that. I could sell pups all day long on paper pedigrees. That is not my goal. Satisfied dog owners, are!!

  8. #28
    Member Gun Dawg's Avatar
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    Great Post........

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jollydog View Post
    Just a few thoughts:
    We don't know for sure if the dogs Tammy listed are not getting bred because they are carriers. Could be, but who really knows.
    I for one would breed to any of those dogs if I felt they would nick well with my Bitchline.
    I had 1st choice of a pup when I bred my bitch to Ali - I kept a carrier because it was the pup I liked the best( Litter had 2 carriers & 5 clears).
    In two breedings to two carrier sire's I have not had one person ask me if they were getting a carrier or clear pup.
    They liked the breeding and are or were hoping to get a a pup that can be successful. I did test and told them after they had picked a pup.
    2nd litter all went to FT homes and again all just are hoping to have one that will play the game.
    The AI vet I use who is a retired Reproductive College Vet, developed CC the clone cat, said we are going to do more damage by getting rid of the carriers-
    When you limit the gene pool you will have other serious problems develop , Look at the problems that Goldens have with a limited gene pool.
    With the EIC test we can breed responsible and keep the excellent traits that the carrier dogs have whether male or female.
    I am getting ready to bred my young bitch to Ali. I have trained with him and love everything about him and most importantly he has proven to
    nick well with my bitchline and that is super important to me. I love Cane and Bullet who I have watched compete, but just not sure how the pedigree's match- one doesn't for sure, so going with the known. Have not seen the other two, but know they have great records. This is an age old argument and I just hope and pray that people will do what is best for the breed and keep the carriers and clears coming so we don't destroy the gene pool.
    AWESOME post Syl!!!
    A few years back, before all of the tests, I bred my MH Stepper bitch Dancy (CNM carrier) to Cosmo (EIC carrier) with some success. Someone asked me just the other day, "if Dancy were still alive today would you still consider breeding her to Cosmo"? My response was, "YES...I may have to keep all of the puppies though"!!!
    We are only as good as those that surround us.

    Birthplace to:
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    •FC-BUTCH's DREAM CODE of TCR-2x Nat'l Qualifier
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    Gettin' Jiggy Widdit-MH
    Dancin' Dreamer Kate-MH (•FC-"FINN",QAA-"Coal"-MNHofF, QAAs-"Tank", QAA-"Allie", MH-"Tease", QAA-"Hardy", MNH-Ruby)

    RIP Sweet mama Dancy!!!

  10. #30
    Senior Member Cedarswamp's Avatar
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    At least one on Tammy's list has a VERY low sperm count.

    As far as personality, like Tammy said, ask questions. It doesn't take long for the word to get around about who is a fighter, noisy on line, etc. At the National, I talked to the trainer of one of my bitch's dams and to the owner of her sire. I had never met either one of them before, but they were very forthcoming about the personalities, work ethic, etc. Most don't mind "talking dog" if they're in it. I did talk to one owner of one on Tammy's list that doesn't really know much about the dogs, said to ask the trainer everything including stud fee, live cover/side-by-side, EIC status, etc. If you can get out to a field trial and watch, if the owner/trainer isn't busy, most are more than willing to talk to you.

    Right now, I have two intact clear/clear, two EIC carriers, one that could be EIC out of one of my now spayed EIC carriers (was only puppy, haven't tested yet), one that could be a CNM carrier out of my clear/clear bitch that we bred to an AFC CNM carrier, and another puppy that is possibly an EIC carrier from an FC AFC MH stud. Yes, I would "prefer" all clear because it would open up my choices on the studs. I have tested litters, like mentioned on a previous post, I've sold them to hunting/pet homes at a reduced price since they had no intention of breeding them. When I test a litter, I also post the whole litter's results on OFA...if I'm keeping one, if I don't have a batch to send in, it's going to cost me $15 anyway, the whole litter only costs $30. Now that it's required for CHIC, that's saving the owners some money, too.
    High Tess JH
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    Others have also graced our hearts...gone not forgotten.
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    and several others...

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