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Thread: Force fetch question...

  1. #11
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    i like to do the dishes at our house. is it really necessary for my wife to withhold sex to get me to do the dishes?

    fyi, my wife force fetches the dogs too!
    john mccallie

  2. #12
    Senior Member Bruce MacPherson's Avatar
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    The question was I believe "If my dog likes to fetch is it necessary to Force fetch"? Nope, if you like the way your dog retrieves then what would be the point. If, on the other hand you would like to prevent some issues that might present themselves with a dog that has not been forced you may want to look into it.
    "The longer you let a dog go in the wrong direction the more they think they are going in the right direction" Don Remien.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    It seems some of us are missing the point. The question was clearly not whether the dog training police will haul the OP away if he doesn't force fetch. He wants to know if FF is a necessity, even though his dog likes to retrieve. No one needs to do any training of any kind - force fetch included. But, the fact that a dog likes to retrieve is not really criteria in deciding whether or not to force fetch. Do it. Don't do it. That's your business. But the rest has been explained. You'll always be glad you did it. You may well regret it if you don't. It's not something anyone "needs" to do. It's a choice each of us makes.

    Evan
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  4. #14
    Member Mark AB's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Evan;1170695]It seems some of us are missing the point. The question was clearly not whether the dog training police will haul the OP away if he doesn't force fetch. He wants to know if FF is a necessity, even though his dog likes to retrieve. No one needs to do any training of any kind - force fetch included. But, the fact that a dog likes to retrieve is not really criteria in deciding whether or not to force fetch. Do it. Don't do it. That's your business. But the rest has been explained. You'll always be glad you did it. You may well regret it if you don't. It's not something anyone "needs" to do. It's a choice each of us makes.

    Evan, let me start by acknowledging that you and many on here have forgotten more about training labs than I will ever know. And because of that I have picked up some great info but am more of a lurker then participant. I also feel that email and discussions like this is the worst form of communication there is becuse we all read and react based through our own filters and perceptions.

    The usuall responce to a new OP with an issue is "what program are you on" and if not on one .... then the lecturing, technical jargon and in some cases belittling starts. In this case one could read some of of the responces as "if you dont ff your an idiot and doing a disservice to your dog. For all we know the OP might hunt 3 times a year and has no intention of ever participating in a HT or FT.

    I guess, being new I have an affinity for new folks with a Fido and no clue whats involved with training and no clue yet what they what to train too. I believe us HT and FT folks are a minority in the retriever world. My life straddles both worlds of serious HT trainers / owners and some of my hunting friends with labs and a pocket of rocks.

    So anytime someone asks me a question or for help with training, i ask about what do they want, what is thier objective? if its training to a higher standard, its above my pay grade so then i give them the name of a couple of local Pro's I know and work with, but if Fido is the family member who sleeps on the couch most of the time then i may walk them through some drills that might help and depending on the issue letting them know its a bandaid not solution.

    I appreciated your responce and do live with "ignorant regret" not having ff my first lab. My regret is I now know the benifits of it, but as my hunting partner she is great.

    So a long winded response in that I don't think some of us missed the point its just we view the retriever training world through a different prism and from different persepective. For me the ultimate targeted objective is needed foundational context prior to any solution?? In my mind I start with the person ... not the dog.

    By the way, your books and posts have been a big help to me and a step towards hopefully in avoiding future regret!!
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  5. #15
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    They have been turning out really nice hunting dogs over sea's before we even started training dogs here is america. Of course you can have a nice gun dog without FF. It would be ignorant to think other wise. Its possible your dog needs it to be a decent working dog. Its possible he doesn't, If you take that route there is a lot to learn ,,,you will need to know what road that system will take you down. My opinion is it gives you more bang for the buck. A systematic force system gets you to where you want to be faster. ''''but thats if you know where your going. If you have never done a FF system before then you will spend lots of time spinning your wheels until you get it figured out.'''which is not bad necessarily because you will learn a lot.

    either way Force or no Force there is a lot to learn,,,but understanding how negative re-enforcement affects a dog is priceless information if you are into dogs.
    If you just want a dog to get some birds for you then generally you can train around that system.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
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    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce MacPherson View Post
    The question was I believe "If my dog likes to fetch is it necessary to Force fetch"? Nope, if you like the way your dog retrieves then what would be the point. If, on the other hand you would like to prevent some issues that might present themselves with a dog that has not been forced you may want to look into it.
    Bruce Realize there are certain times your dog may say I don't want to do that or he does not do something correctly. You want to be able to correct him somehow for not doing something. An example: water cheating on marks. You have to decide how far you want to take your dog to what level of correction that works for you or if you choose none at all. You do need to find a consistent way to correct your dog to attain your goals. Teaching your dog fairly first will go along way for whatever method you choose.JMHO Good luck to you.
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  7. #17
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    I don’t compete with my dog. I can say from limited experience FF changed our relationship for the better. It bled into other parts of our work, not just the retrieve.

  8. #18
    Junior Member Handler in Training's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    You'll always be glad you did it. You may well regret it if you don't

    Evan

    I believe this is enough to be said!

    Very good points mentioned about what your goals are and the training necessary to reach those goals. However, by going through force fetch and realizing the potential of my dog, and all dogs. I will never have another retriever that is not properly FF.

    This is a board where when a question is asked, you are going to get a lot of opinions and personal experiences as responses. That is the intent of a discussion board. The OP has to take these opinions and personal experiences of others and formulate their own answer to their question.

    My training has evolved so much following FF, and other training methods, that I now use my actual hunting as a way to reinforce my training and make our testing go better. When I first started, I thought I would do all this training to make my hunting go better. Silly me! One of my hunting partners thinks I am being a little ridiculous when I don't allow my dog to switch to the flopping, half dead goose we dropped after being sent for the dead one he originally marked. My point...Your goals, training, and hunting might very well change as you begin to expect more from your dog. FF is the start of expecting more.

    Good Luck!
    Eric Webb

  9. #19
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roseberry View Post
    i like to do the dishes at our house. is it really necessary for my wife to withhold sex to get me to do the dishes?

    fyi, my wife force fetches the dogs too!
    Maybe I should try doing more dishes.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  10. #20
    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    My wife is one of those positive trainers. She let me learn that me washing dishes causes her clothes to fall off.
    If you call and get no answer, please leave a voicemail. I will be washing dishes.
    Last edited by rmilner; 12-14-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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