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Thread: Force fetch question...

  1. #41
    Senior Member Pas Bon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    So I'm extrapolating here that Milner now trains his dogs to swim through Stewart's snake oil slick, 'cause he d*mned sure don't teach 'em to swim in a straight line through water, since they'll become hypothermic and die, and thus more Labs will need to be imported from the UK where they don't get in the water a'tall.

    Good photo of Stewie you posted on Evan Graham's force fetch thread elsewhere, Pas Boy - I know, I know it was supposed to be P.T. Barnum, but you gotta admit, the resemblance is uncanny.

    MG
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice when it comes to dog training but I don't get why all the hate just because some folks do things differently. I never said one way was better than the other just that there are choices out there. I figure folks that do things one way probably know that way better than the other.

    As for the post of PT I only responded in kind, the arrows were certainly getting slung in both directions.

    Good Luck to you and yours and I hope this season is full of peace and joy, and ducks too!

    Merry CHRISTmas!

    Pas- The non atheist Amish trainer.

  2. #42
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roseberry View Post
    many of you here know much more history that i do. but i do consider mr. milner's book "retriever training for the duck hunter" as one of the earliest and still best publications on the topic of force/force fetch. it is a must read for all imho.

    note: i never speak with a catch and release fisherman that does not have at least one very seasoned black iron skillet somewhere in his past. likewise, there is an old table in the shed of most positive trainers too!
    I've shot ducks with Robert and broken bread with Robert and his lovely wife. They are good folks.

    I think it's really poor form some of the stuff that was written earlier about Robert. I'm pretty sure the guy throwing the arrows would not take too kindly if similar stuff were written, pointing the opposite way. Speaking of which, I recall a reverse name change, going from a "real name" back to a "handle".... I personally question if some accountability goes to the wayside with this sort of move.

    Fact is, I have had folks cry that they're calling their lawyers over similar posts (allegations of puppy mill operation and such) Robert's seasoned enough to know that generally, publicity is good, even if the person giving it is not intentionally helping.

    Do I agree with everything Robert has written? No! Do I agree with everything my wife or my boss (are they the same?) say? No! But that doesn't make it right to publicly defame.

    I had the pleasure of hugging Tommy Sorenson's widow Kay and letting her know that Robert sent his well-wishes. She had fond memories and nice things to say - of a man who indeed spent some time running American Field Trials, writing books of American FT training methods, etc.

    Personal attacks are crappy...period.

    I Force break my dogs. I decheat. I run a few trials when I can. I aspire to have a titled dog that I put the points on 100% on my own.

    We all deserve to have our own personal preferences, our own aspirations, and our own desires, without someone else whizzing on them and calling us names.

    Chris - who has a Sage 6 weight in the case, with barbless Henryville specials. ....and fond memories of a Chattooga River Trout Fry while listening to "The Foxfire Boys" live right before they appeared at the Grand Old Osprey or whatever Gooser calls that place in Nashville.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  3. #43
    Senior Member BlaineT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post

    Chris - who has a Sage 6 weight in the case, with barbless Henryville specials. ....and fond memories of a Chattooga River Trout Fry while listening to "The Foxfire Boys"

    Chris

    Forget FFing dogs, lets head to the river…..Ive been fly fishing the Chattooga for 20+ years. One of the prettiest places in the southeast.
    HRCH Hudson River Drake (Possom)
    HRCH Hudson River Saying Grace (Gracie)

  4. #44
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post

    I Force break my dogs. I decheat. I run a few trials when I can. I aspire to have a titled dog that I put the points on 100% on my own.
    Chris - who has a Sage 6 weight in the case, with barbless Henryville specials. ....and fond memories of a Chattooga River Trout Fry while listening to "The Foxfire Boys" live right before they appeared at the Grand Old Osprey or whatever Gooser calls that place in Nashville.

    Chris
    When you have finished fishing with Blaine T , get yer Kilt on and come over here!.....
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  5. #45
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    Robert M the only trainer I've ever seen who gets to talk poorly about fellow trainers, trialers and breeders and get applauded by folks for it. The American lab has been ruined by field trialers. Not written in an opinion based format either.

    Just sayin'....

  6. #46
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbone View Post
    Oh boy, someone is going to assume you are using the basin wrench for FF.
    Good point
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  7. #47
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    I guess my first reply to the link wasn't a good enough explanation ,so I was questioned on it and gave my opinion . So then I get scolded.
    Sincerly Shawn White.
    Shawn White

    HR Big Creek Retrievers Independence Day JH QAA "Indy "

  8. #48
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawninthesticks View Post
    I guess my first reply to the link wasn't a good enough explanation ,so I was questioned on it and gave my opinion . So then I get scolded.
    Sincerly Shawn White.
    Hi Shawn,

    I didn't scold you. I gave an opinion. If you think it's OK to give an opinion as you gave, then I'd suggest you take ownership for your own words. Nobody made you turn your first opinion into something more. You chose to do that on your own. You typed it, you submitted it to the net.

    If you think calling someone that ran Field Trials in the 70's "The king of backyard breeders with an accent" is nothing more than an opinion, that's your perogative. I'm going to tell you though, that I get calls from folks threatening legal action when such words are written about them. Robert won't but some have.

    I think that what you wrote is an insult that some would consider to be defamatory.

    I'd imagine, based upon your reaction to what I wrote, that you would not take too kindly if someone issued such an allegation against you.

    Please use the "Golden Rule". Address others as you'd want them to write about you. One day, especially if you're doing things like breeding puppies, you'll be glad folks treated you with such respect.

    Milner writes emotionally stimulating stuff for effect. He never mentioned your name. He never accused you of anything.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  9. #49
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    One reason I consider FF recommendations as a "one size fits all" no-no is that some folks will choose to give it a go and screw it up.

    Some will take a dog that's fine and makes them happy, and turn it into something worse, as a result of trying to fit what others suggest.

    A perfect example is this notion of someone posting about a dog that won't go into cold water. The whole premise of suggesting that FF is a good thing, and that it can correlate over to problems with a dog getting into cold water is dangerous.

    While it could be right, it also could be dangerously wrong.

    The last thing that I think we should be suggesting to strangers on the net, whose dogs we've never seen before, is that they should rely upon pressure to make their dogs get into cold water in the duck marsh.

    chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  10. #50
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    Originally Posted by RookieTrainer
    I have a basin wrench in my tool box. I have needed it once in my life (so far - knock on wood), and it was invaluable on the occasion I needed it. I hope I never need it again, but if a situation arises in the future where I need it then I have it and I know what to do with it to correct the problem.

    But why wouldn't you want the tool?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbone View Post
    Oh boy, someone is going to assume you are using the basin wrench for FF.
    Right you are Jimbone... Kind of combination FF tool and short version of Mike Gould's Power Bar, quick flip ear gripper makes it invaluable for precision two sided heeling.
    Like something Sister Mary Elephant might use to march you off down the hall to the principle's office.
    Last edited by blind ambition; 12-17-2013 at 05:51 PM.
    power without lumber, raciness without weediness

    A big man never looks down on others.... instead, he is someone to look up to.

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