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Thread: Dog Knows The Difference. I'm Stumped!

  1. #21
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    The Video at the bottom of the page is Very good...

    Jim,,,

    after your dog retrieves the bumper you hand threw,he comes back to heel and delivers nicely to hand...

    I have a comment,, and a question..

    In my training group,, if that would have been my dog,,, after Your dog, (Taffy?) came back toheel,,andsat,, then delivered to hand,, you let him break sit..

    His butt came off the ground,, and he pranced around a bit.

    Is this permissible for your dog..
    In my training group,, I would have been reminded that I missed a Very Good Opportunity to enforce that "sit" command...

    Your training day should show a LOT of us amateurs and beginners that training doesnt always have to be a walk to the line,, three throws,, then back to the truck..

    I am making a mental note of your video,, and will try to emulate what you did in my weekly training,,, I reallly liked what you did..T
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  2. #22
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I get told constantly in training, I miss opportunity to correct for "sit".

    The actions by Flinch are very subtle,, and I let them go, thinking,, "Oh,, that wasnt that big a deal."

    For example,,, after a mark goes down,, and I wait a period of time,, then I put my hand down to send,, Flinch will almost always anticipate the send, by leaning forward a bit,, and lifting her arse..
    I will send,, as soon as I see her do this.. or,,I will get in a hurry knowing she will do this,,,,, and send to fast....

    I get told Immediately,,the command should have been "sit" with a correction... I get told,,I am very slowly teaching her to break..

    I think she is a very steady dog,, but the folks that KNOW what will lead to future problems see differently...

    Teds "Sit means Sit or does it?" is a very good thread..
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  3. #23
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I get told constantly in training, I miss opportunity to correct for "sit".

    The actions by Flinch are very subtle,, and I let them go, thinking,, "Oh,, that wasnt that big a deal."

    For example,,, after a mark goes down,, and I wait a period of time,, then I put my hand down to send,, Flinch will almost always anticipate the send, by leaning forward a bit,, and lifting her arse..
    I will send,, as soon as I see her do this.. or,,I will get in a hurry knowing she will do this,,,,, and send to fast....

    I get told Immediately,,the command should have been "sit" with a correction... I get told,,I am very slowly teaching her to break..

    I think she is a very steady dog,, but the folks that KNOW what will lead to future problems see differently...

    Teds "Sit means Sit or does it?" is a very good thread..
    Gooser, is the problem that your dog is leaning forward, or that she is lifting her butt off the ground, or both? My dog does the leaning forward (ready set go!) thing when I put my hand down, but I think her butt and paws are still planted. I have not considered the leaning a problem, I thought she was telling me "ya boss, I hear ya, I'm ready, just say the word" with her body language.
    Renee P

  4. #24
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I get told constantly in training, I miss opportunity to correct for "sit".

    The actions by Flinch are very subtle,, and I let them go, thinking,, "Oh,, that wasnt that big a deal."

    For example,,, after a mark goes down,, and I wait a period of time,, then I put my hand down to send,, Flinch will almost always anticipate the send, by leaning forward a bit,, and lifting her arse..
    I will send,, as soon as I see her do this.. or,,I will get in a hurry knowing she will do this,,,,, and send to fast....

    I get told Immediately,,the command should have been "sit" with a correction... I get told,,I am very slowly teaching her to break..

    I think she is a very steady dog,, but the folks that KNOW what will lead to future problems see differently...

    Teds "Sit means Sit or does it?" is a very good thread..
    Hey Gooser, I was just like you for many years. It's a big picture-mind set thing. I used to look at a test, I could instantly see the meat of the test and focus on that. I was so focused on setting my dog up to succeed on the key element of the mark that I would allow a slight creep or relax a standard. It took a while but after time I learned to look for and recognize training opportunities. I realized that getting a well timed sit correction was just as, if not more important than having my dog punch that cover and pin the key bird. Just this last Fall I was training for a few days with a good pro just prior to the Golden Specialty down in Texas. As the third bird of a triple went down my dog raised his rear end an inch and I immediately whacked him with my baseball hat with a loud sit. He sat and completed the test. The pro I was with give me effusive praise on the perfectly timed correction, I can't even remember how my dog did on the marks.

    So next time you go to the line, in addition to all that test out there, sit your dog and never take your eye off him. Hope and pray that he moves his but and inch so you can get that perfect correction. You can actually be disappointed that he was steady as a rock, then shift your attention to the next part of the test. This anticipation goes for every aspect. Have a plan for every part of the test. What will you do if he suddenly swerves to avoid cover inroute? Where do you want him to enter the water, how much slack if he's going full speed but slides down the shore a bit before entering? Be ready for surprises, "I never saw him do that before". Beginning trainers, and you are far from a beginner, tend to stand flat footed in shock when their dog make a move that a more experienced trainer saw coming from a mile away.

    John

    Edit; I should have said "her' not "him". I didn't pay enough attention when I read your post, you have a girl dog.
    Last edited by John Robinson; 12-23-2013 at 02:00 PM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Gooser asked, "In my training group,, if that would have been my dog,,, after Your dog, (Taffy?) came back to heel,,and sat,, then delivered to hand,, you let him break sit..His butt came off the ground,, and he pranced around a bit. Is this permissible for your dog.."

    Guilty as charged. The "Long Wait" video was one of my first attempts at actually "seeing" what I was doing with my dogs. The video camera was a new addition to training alone. However, a friend was having steady issues with her young Master Hunter retriever Kate. We met at a training pond near Rockford, Illinois to try out the "new drill". A Gunz Up tape was playing and apparently my primary training focus was on making sure each dog re-heeled to a different position before retrieving.

    Daisy (not Taffey) was wearing an e-collar, but looking closely I don't think I was carrying the transmitter. In addition, there was no healing stick in hand. I remember at the time my concerns were more about making sure the camera was setup properly and getting a "keeper" video. In retrospect those first few attempts at video taping training sessions were skewed. Video sessions became training complications. For several attempts thereafter, each review was punctuated with "OMG! Did I actually do that?" As time went on the need for producing a useful video caused more thought in how to make sure training was maximized. Awareness became more of a focus.

    For what it's worth, the only thing we were concentrating on was making sure each dog learned they would not retrieve until re-heeled from the initial line to the actual retrieving spot.....not every mark was theirs and momentum was to be "altered". In reality, this left other potential learning/correction "adjustments" static.

    In retrospect, both of our dogs were what one might call very animated at the line. This drill was designed to be low key, slow and almost boring. Prior training attempts with sticking/correcting while demanding high standards had been less than effective for whatever reason (balance?).

    Therefore, a totally different approach was sought....low key, calm and persistent with the idea of being responsive at the top of the list. That meant not anticipating or enduring a correction for infractions, but simply learning to become available if and when called upon with the cue being move on command to a different spot to retrieve. Basically, momentum was refocused via a responsive connection.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 12-23-2013 at 03:18 PM.
    Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
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  6. #26
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Gooser, is the problem that your dog is leaning forward, or that she is lifting her butt off the ground, or both? My dog does the leaning forward (ready set go!) thing when I put my hand down, but I think her butt and paws are still planted. I have not considered the leaning a problem, I thought she was telling me "ya boss, I hear ya, I'm ready, just say the word" with her body language.
    if you read sit means sit or does it, Ted dives the point home about Zero tolerance for movement.

    if dogs leans in anticipation, and it influences the handler to send before the dog breaks, then what have to started to teach the dog?

    As John so elequently stated, you should look for opportunity to correct especially the SIT.

    I miss a Lot of them, and know right awY that I did.

    Its very hard to do, when you really want to see the dog just slam a set up.

    This is how my pevious dogs learned to be creepy littl Sh!!ts
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  7. #27
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Work your dog at a tower shoot, it offers the greatest opportunity to train steadiness. Absolutely no movement from sit position. Movement means no retrieve. Pick some up yourself, too. Look at Hillman's Traffic Cop. Proof your dog, don't assume that sit means sit in every situation until you have explained it to him (trained it) in every situation. This is the GENERALIZATION of the behavior. Dogs are poor at generalizing. Every time your dog breaks and gets a retrieve, hours of work are being undone, again IMHO.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  8. #28
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Jim

    your dogs are a fine example of what many here want out of our training.

    your approach to training set ups and the videos you have created are very good.

    both those dogs in the video would be a joy to hunt with I am sure.

    Some say, yea, but I just want a gun dig. Just a dog to pick up my birds for me.


    But, the Training is the same, no matter what dog you want, and if you let those standars slip, like I often times do, then problems erupt like what OP has.

    I bet if he would really take a step back, or get someone with an experienced eye, he would prolly agree that the sit standard hasnt really been enforced.

    some THING got the dog thinking it was OK to move in certain situations.

    I have been told that after three episodes of this lax attitude, you now have a habit you will have to fix.

    If you hunt, and let a young dog break and get the retrieve, and it happens a couple a times,, well, I think this is why experienced folks here say, Dont hunt a dog untill its ready.

    all the mistakes I have made rolled into one.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #29
    Senior Member BigKahuna13's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for all of the input. Tomorrow I am going to start the training with the retrieve r trainer because the real shotgun can't be used at this point. I have recruited a friend for help on this. My plan is to get the dog to sit for an extended period of time. Next I was thinking that I'd toss in some duck calls and a tossed bumper which I would pick up and then judge from there. I will see what if anything needs to be addressed regarding sit. I know that this is a process in every sense of the word so I know that baby steps are necessary but my goal is to test and see where I went wrong in the past. My buddy is another set of eyes as well as somebody who can grab bumpers or fire shot while I ensure a perfect sit. As I progress I plan on bringing birds back into the equation. I figure that I can use my hunting spots after the season ends of course and keep at it. He is one hell of a driven retriever and I should have really trained in many different scenarios rather than the predictable ones. Thanks again and Merry Christmas

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