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Thread: Stubborn heeling

  1. #21

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    Thanks for all the help guys I hope you all have a great Christmas!

  2. #22
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterdawg View Post
    I would try the wonder lead, every one that I have talked to that has used loves it..... my dog is pretty good at heal but I think that I may pick one up just to reinforce basics..

    This a Great sugestion..

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  3. #23
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    Always dangerous to give internet advice, so, what the heck.

    Sounds like the dog is associating heel postion with Bad Things happening there. Task 1 is to figure out why the dog is so opposed to being next to the owner. Is it because of heel training or is there a lot of correction for something else with the dog at his side? Does he use an e-collar? Has he been trying to get the dog (for example) to speed up on retrieves by burning the dog in heel position?

    What does he do (or what has he been doing) when he drags the dog into postion? I've seen handlers that apparently believe dogs understand lecturing. (Dog is on tight leash being held in heel postion while handler screams "I SAID HEEL!!! RIGHT HERE! THIS IS WHAT I WANT!!! UNDERSTAND???" Such behavior does not infect a dog with a desire to be close to the handler. Nor does it have to be so blatant. Simply frowning and never looking happy when dog is close can be intimidating to the dog.

    For a while, I'd suggest the owner work with lures, leave the collar and leash off to start, and work to make sure the dog understands the owner is HAPPY when the dog is heeling.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member FOM's Avatar
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    I'd recommend to stop fussing with a perfect heel...start off like you would a puppy. If the dog is within a few feet of me I'm happy, not pulling and not totally lagging...as long as they take directional change and follow along. Anytime pup/dog happens to be in the perfect heel position extra praise and a treat - I'm a walking pez dispenser! But only when ya are where I truly want you, otherwise any praise is very neutral.

    Once pup/dog gets the follow me down routine I start making my turns sharper and quicker and add just a little bit of tug on the leash. Anytime they are in the ideal position they get treats and praise.

    Lots and lots of this will help a pup/dog along without pressure. Get the dog/pup to admit being at heel is a good place to be...

    just cause this dog is older does not mean it knows any more about heeling than an 8 week old pup.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    FOM posted,
    Anytime pup/dog happens to be in the perfect heel position extra praise and a treat - I'm a walking pez dispenser! But only when ya are where I truly want you, otherwise any praise is very neutral......Lots and lots of this will help a pup/dog along without pressure. Get the dog/pup to admit being at heel is a good place to be...
    Spot on, I'd heard of FF Lite before but not Clicker Lite

    Just a word about the Wonder Lead. If it's used in the same way as a stopped slip lead, there's a bit of a learning curve; it's not nearly as easy as it looks and timing is absolutely critical if you are looking for precision. The aim isn't to pull the dog into the exact spot you want but to encourage him via very quick raps to "assume the position". You don't tug backwards, just nick it sideways, and the lead is held in both hands across your body in such a way that there is virtually no slack, but it's still not restraining the dog. It's one of those jobs where simple is not a synonym for easy!

    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 12-25-2013 at 02:38 AM.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    it does,
    but a dog like the one talking about here....
    kick the pinch collar up a notch with a pocket full of dog food.
    heck, I have had a persnickity one that I needed to keep kibble in my hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    It's very hard to be specific without seeing the dog and handler together, so take this for what it's worth. That sounds like a confused dog that has endured a "butterfly" training regime and continues to do so. Not much sign either of leaving something in it for the dog, just a ratcheting up of aversives. Dogs don't get much out of heeling training so I try to be creative and give them some fun.

    So I agree with Ken when he posted only I'd take it a few steps further (pun intended) and put the kibble / treat into a more formal and precise system and initially teach heel via clicker, and develop / reinforce through repetition using a loose slip lead stopped behind the ears (as per Delmar Smith) as a safety belt and simple retrieves as a reward, plus praise.

    The advantage of clicker with the sticky ones is that they don't shut down and you don't even need a lead initially so the bad reaction to it is sidestepped, and all you look for is a wee improvement in each (short) session. There's no need to look for perfection, just steadily increasing precision and body positioning. Again we haven't seen the handler, but his own body language should be regular and precise. Within a session break things up so that you don't become predictable or boring. See below .....



    No heeling stick, pinch collar, e-collar or ropes were harmed in the making of this movie by Richard Biggs, professional gamekeeper and guest trainer with our group.

    Eug
    And kick this up one more notch---don't feed the dog so that you have a hungry dog when you train.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member GG's Avatar
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    There is one thing you should consider beyond all the good advice given. The dog is telling you something about her character by these actions, my guess is: your friend will have trainability issues with this dog for her entire career. Make sure she has some kind of redeeming talent that makes such a difficult task worthwhile, because this is only the beginning.
    good luck
    GG
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  8. #28
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG View Post
    There is one thing you should consider beyond all the good advice given. The dog is telling you something about her character by these actions, my guess is: your friend will have trainability issues with this dog for her entire career. Make sure she has some kind of redeeming talent that makes such a difficult task worthwhile, because this is only the beginning.
    good luck
    GG
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  9. #29
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    And kick this up one more notch---don't feed the dog so that you have a hungry dog when you train.
    And kick this one more notch------,show us the dog before ?, and how it was sorted?
    Good clip on what it should be .well done!..gdg
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  10. #30
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    And, maybe the guy has only trained puppies he raised to heel, and never a year-old dog with bad or no training?
    Dog may have been yanked around unfairly on a lead as a pup before he got it or never really been restrained with a lead before. In any case I'd do as FOM suggested, start as you would with a pup, getting pup to walk beside you on a loose lead, not lagging or forging ahead using lots of treats. After it can do that, then polish up the heeling so it looks more like the vid. Col B. posted.
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