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Thread: CNM Testing UC Davis

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Vicky Trainor's Avatar
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    i will be using Alfort for various reasons:
    - Dr. Tiret added three steps in reliability back in 2009 after he found that certain contaminants were more likely to slip through the regular steps in analysis
    - Alfort has PhD DNA specialists, unlike some of the other testing facilities
    - The cost of the test is $55 which includes the kit; First Class postage as recommended by Alfort is under $3.00
    - The customer service with Alfort is top notch
    - Alfort & Dr. Tiret are the pioneers in CNM testing; why use second best (even to save a few dollars) when you can use the experts with tons of experience in the field.
    Vicky
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  2. #22
    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    You guys who refuse to accept results from any labs that did not invent the tests because you don't think they the results are reliable:

    If U of Minnesota EIC people started offering the tests for PRA and CNM, are you saying you would not trust the PRA and CNM results, even though you trust their EIC results??? Or if Alfort started offering to do EIC tests, are you saying you would not trust their ability to do the EIC test, even though you think they are the best when it comes to the CNM test?
    That is correct. I think *I* am pretty good at what I do for my real job too (I have developed my own methods to determine fruit ripening events to time expensive growth regulator applications and harvest maturity for successful storage). I wouldn't expect my clients to trust me to run other analytical tests for them that I don't have the same background in. We're talking about a lot of liability at stake in both situations.
    Last edited by windycanyon; 12-29-2013 at 11:40 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    You guys who refuse to accept results from any labs that did not invent the tests because you don't think they the results are reliable:

    If U of Minnesota EIC people started offering the tests for PRA and CNM, are you saying you would not trust the PRA and CNM results, even though you trust their EIC results??? Or if Alfort started offering to do EIC tests, are you saying you would not trust their ability to do the EIC test, even though you think they are the best when it comes to the CNM test?
    It isn't quite that black and white, Renee. First, I prefer to support the researchers who develop the tests and not just because of reliability. Second, I did not say I discount all other lab results, I said I ask who did the tests and make my decisions accordingly. If Joe Breeder with first litter says he did the swabs himself and sent to the new place doing tests and got a great deal on having EIC, CNM and PRA done from one sample, well, it's my option to take that for whatever it is worth in my personal experience. If having clear is imperative, that is. If I am breeding a carrier to a clear dog that isn't mine, then I look at the "chain of evidence" which says dog is clear. I have EIC carrier females. I require males that live here to be EIC clear. Even though the Grady son I have came from EIC clear parents, I tested him anyway. If U of MN, or Optigen or Alfort decided to license each other or other labs to do their tests, then I'd think those places would be fine as well. But, I have zero reason to go anywhere other than the developers. There's nothing difficult about sending samples to U of MN or Alfort or Optigen. A little more paperwork than a "one stop shop". Maybe a little more $$ but that's a pittance in the overall scheme.

    In my puppy guarantee, I warrant against EIC/CNM affected. If someone claims their dog is affected by either, and the tests were not performed by Alfort or U of MN, then I require the test be redone with them (along with vet verification of the microchip I installed before pup went home). I do the best I can to get the most reliable answers I can when breeding, I ask the same of anyone who wants to make a claim on a pup from me, whether it be second opinion on eyes, radiographs or whatnot. Not all radiographs and vet opinions are the same.

    Maybe it sounds excessive, arrogant or overly paranoid or just stupid, to you, Renee. But once I started breeding, I took on that responsibility for my buyers, not just myself. I would have no problem buying a pup from a parent with no elbows or a bad hip or failed CERF or whatnot, IF I knew the dog, pedigree and circumstances, and it was to be a performance dog for me. But when I consider that I now answer to others, I have to ask myself, how do I respond to someone that gets a pup from me, from a parent with no OFA hip or questionable EIC status, and their pup has bad hip or is EIC affected, do I say oh well, tough noogies, buyer beware? It took years to build my client base and, even more, I feel awful when something goes wrong. Yes, health issues can still happen, even with all clearances, we all know that, and it's why I offer a warranty on some things, why any business tries to maintain customer satisfaction with a warranty. I like to be able to pull out the health clearances on both parents that show that I did the best I could with what tools we have. There are things over which I have no control, there are buyers who go overboard in their expectations of perfection or who did stupid stuff with the pup. Stuff happens. Guarantees are foolish when it comes down to it and I don't blame breeders for not giving them when they've done clearances to their best ability. But for me to feel halfway not guilty when something goes wrong, I do clearances that meet my standards. They may not be what others would do, that's fine, others are not answering to my clients.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  4. #24
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Umm I'm sorry y'all; and not discounting the work that went into discovering the proper gene sequences for certain conditions, but these are very simple PCR DNA tests, a very basic procedure, you know the gene sequence (which are published) you order the primers, mix them in a tube run them in the PCR machine, most are completely automated and the machine reads the results. As long as samples are properly labeled, and you have proper documentation and controls, any molecular lab can run these test, with very good accuracy. I probably run 20 to 30 of these tests every other day; gene expression for different disease etc., in many different types of animals the procedures are the same.

    I have historically used Alfort and U o M, however I now have pups I know are clear by parentage, I'll probably use one of the multiple test labs to confirm this before breeding. I need other tests why not get them all done at the same lab? same sample, same time, @ a discount?
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 01-06-2014 at 02:30 PM.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    The location of the mutations are public knowledge. Anyone who knows how to do the DNA amplification can do the test. What it boils down to is the trustworthiness of the laboratory: do you trust them to do the paper work correctly and not contaminate the samples? That kind of thing. Certainly if UC Davis can be trusted to do some of the tests, they can be trusted to do CNM as well.

    The fact that a research group has identified a mutation in DNA does not make them inherently more qualified than another reputable lab to do the test, as the location of the mutation is not a secret.

    Who you want to give your business to is a different matter. If you want to support Alfort because they put in the research, great, but that doesn't make places like UC Davis unqualified to do the same test.
    Dead on. Go with who you want, but just because one lab identified it, doesn't mean another lab can't accurately run the test -- and perhaps do it better because, unlike a university-funded lab, their business depends upon it (this is not to say that unreliable labs do not exist). The old tired argument of "supporting the lab that discovered it because they put the time and money into it" is somewhat BS, in my opinion. All, or at least an overwhelming vast majority, of the OFA labs are university-affiliated. And a majority of funding for most public universities come from the federal government and grants -- which are paid for with ALL taxpayers' monies.

    Mitty is also correct in that the Supreme Court ruled in the Myriad case: "Held: A naturally occurring DNA segment is a product of nature and not patent eligible merely because it has been isolated" (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-398_1b7d.pdf). That's "naturally occurring DNA" (as opposed to cDNA), and not human-specific DNA -- "naturally occurring" and applicable to human, canine, bovine, feline, et al.

    Here's what I always wondered -- why does a research lab get a free pass simply because they identified something? There's a difference between diagnostic and research laboratories. Who is inspecting the research lab for cleanliness? For standards -- anyone? As far as I've been able to tell, nobody is inspecting any lab, commercial or university. There are no standards, no certification, no checkups, no nothing.

    Also: OFA lists labs that they accept tests from, but that doesn't mean (as Mitty pointed out) that a lab not appearing on the list isn't "certified" (none of them are "certified" -- can anyone provide a certification process for OFA? I believe it's been well over a decade since OFA recognized a new laboratory, despite the relative affordability, reliability and advancement of technology in the last 15-20 years) -- just that OFA isn't associated with them, and that, as was stated, you, as the breeder, must be better organized and able to show proof of your breeding pair's status in regards to each test instead of simply referring buyers to OFA.

  6. #26
    Senior Member TroyFeeken's Avatar
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    Why use a service that isn't supported by OFA? Also, why use a service that we've seen on this site as having passed false positive results? Consistency and accuracy.
    Cody's Gunslingin' Cosmonaut MH (Shooter)

  7. #27
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    What if OFA is a closed-circuit? I.e., they didn't want to "support" a lab, for whatever reason (which could be that the lab's standards were too low (but which is impossible to know because there are no standards) to a lab that that threatened the university-led establishment to personal opinion, grudges, whims-of-the-day?) ... what then? Which service are you referring to as providing the false-positives?

  8. #28
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    Why use a service that isn't supported by OFA? Also, why use a service that we've seen on this site as having passed false positive results? Consistency and accuracy.
    UoM has had some false EIC affected as well, when the dogs were only carriers. As with anything where humans are involved there will always be a chance for inaccuracies, incorrect labeling, mix-ups, incorrect reporting wrong results to wrong owners etc etc. No test is fool proof, it only gives a degree of certainty, which is why breeding clear by parentage dogs, without checking their status is probably not the best idea. I've heard it both ways from a couple of breeders, a pup comes back clear out of a never collapsing EIC "affected" female and a dog comes back CNM (carrier from one company; clear from another (both recheck their records both have the dog down as a carrier, but the wrong result was mailed). I believe the official reply was we must transcribed the results wrong, but we'll retest both parent and offspring for free . Figure each company is running many 1000's of tests a year, eventually no matter how accurate a test, how skilled a lab there's going to be an incorrect result.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 01-06-2014 at 04:41 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
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    "I train dogs, Not papers"

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    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
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  9. #29
    Super Moderator Vicky Trainor's Avatar
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    Why do I use Alfort? I've had extensive conversations with someone that I highly respect that has personal experience with Alfort. This person has been highly involved with the CNM disease, has visited, reviewed and observed at length the entire process of the testing at Alfort. First hand observations/knowledge is something I will trust much more than something I have only "heard" about.

    Use whichever lab you want to use. It's your choice.
    Vicky
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  10. #30
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    UoM has had some false EIC affected as well, when the dogs were only carriers. As with anything where humans are involved there will always be a chance for inaccuracies, incorrect labeling, mix-ups, incorrect reporting wrong results to wrong owners etc etc. No test is fool proof, it only gives a degree of certainty, which is why breeding clear by parentage dogs, without checking their status is probably not the best idea. I've heard it both ways from a couple of breeders, a pup comes back clear out of a never collapsing EIC "affected" female and a dog comes back CNM (carrier from one company; clear from another (both recheck their records both have the dog down as a carrier, but the wrong result was mailed). I believe the official reply was we must transcribed the results wrong, but we'll retest both parent and offspring for free . Figure each company is running many 1000's of tests a year, eventually no matter how accurate a test, how skilled a lab there's going to be an incorrect result.
    I agree with you about the eventuality of a mistake; and there goes the myth of the lab of discovery being infallible compared to any other lab.

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