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Question for the pros on building confidence in the dog

18K views 91 replies 31 participants last post by  CodyC 
#1 ·
Wondering how to build confidence in the dog as far as hand signals and blind retrieves goes. Blake is 10 months old and we have almost perfected the mini T, 9 times out of 10 he does it flawlessly. He does really well with blinds as long as everything is in close. In other words, I have a hard time making him confident in my command to send him further. He will run "backs" and "overs" perfect but if he has to go further than about 20 yards he gets real confused and kind of starts to hunt for it instead of holding his line. Is this something that will build as time goes on or is there something I need to do to drive it home??? Thanks in advance.
 
#3 ·
have you done big T or TT?
 
#5 ·
How is his marking and what kind of distances and factors have been involved
 
#17 ·
Danny has a great article on his website: www.dannyfarmer.com

Make sure to always run 3-5 blinds each session…they get better with each one and their confidence will go up. But if you haven't done the Double T yet…time to move on to that first.
This IS a great article! Op should take the time to read it.

Its at the link Jiggy provided, under "training Tips",,, the Title of article is "Starting Cold Blinds"
 
#8 ·
He needs a lot more time in the yard before you start attempting cold blinds or even pattern or bird boy blinds. You are setting your dog up for failure by asking him to do something that he has not been trained yet to do. Go back and teach T and TT with a systematic approach while taking your time. Once he is very confident on these concepts then you can worry about developing a cold blind standard.
 
#9 ·
What training besides mini T have you done?
 
#10 ·
I have mine running 200 + yard marks with confidence before even starting any pile or handling work. I don't want distance to be a limiting factor when we get to the handling drills.
A dog that is confident in these type marks won't think twice about 100 yard blinds or pile work.
At 10 months, you are right on schedule. What is the rush?
MP
 
#11 ·
Hence my question to the op..but he seems to have went AWOL...
 
#12 ·
Thanks for all the responses, I have been out for a while. The dog will run 100 yard marks but I definitely haven't done enough bird boy with him, some but not a whole lot. I am not expecting him to be nailing this, I was more or less seeing if he is on track or if I need to make adjustments. Have not done any double T. When I say 20 yards I mean he will cast hard with confidence for 20 yards but then he slows down and starts to hunt but still going in the right direction. No rush, hes coming along nicely, just poking around to see what kind of advice was out there
 
#13 ·
If you have not done any big T, you are not even remotely ready to be sending him on cold blinds....
 
#14 ·
Cody you need to tell us what you have done to get ready for mini T or the advice is worthless. folks are telling what to do next before they know what you have done so far. That's just a really bad idea.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Sometimes terms are confusing. Is what you are calling mini t really simple casting (formerly called baseball)? I assume you have done FF and collar conditioned the dog?
Are you following a training program?
 
#21 · (Edited)
Ok now we know where you are.
First i would pick one of the programs you have and follow it. And not try to mix and match.

Your dog is not ready for cold blinds.
I follow a different program than you have. Hopefully you did FTP at some distance say 35-45 yd. The next step in my program is to move to the T field. First teach the line to the back pile. Smartworks
should explain how to do this. This is where you begin to stretch the dog out in lining.
You might want to read the post on "Popping" and Mike Perry's response.

Some dogs hate these drills as my Rowdy did. When we left the T field and moved to pattern blinds his confidence and drive began to show.

Hope this helps.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Now we are getting somewhere. You don't need to watch the computer all day just be careful taking advice from someone that has no idea what you have done with your dog yet has the solution for your problem.

First of all I have NEVER seen anyone that's new to dog training (not trained A LOT of dogs) get good results by "sort of following a program" and most certainly not by mixing a bit of this guys methods with a bit of that guys methods. They may think they have but probably lack the experience to know any better. To follow a proven sequential process will provide your best opportunity to get the most from any dog. Experience is a HUGE luxury that you are lacking so to me it just makes sense to use as much of someone else's as you can. Once you commit to someone else's experience stay the course do not mix it with anything else and do each step completely.

Myself I would never try to run blinds with a dog that has just finished mini t. the program I follow involves several more steps before cold blinds. The steps I use that you have skipped will go a long way to help your dog not only gain confidence but also understand exactly what is expected when running a blind. Here is where things can get tricky because if you go to the outline of the program I use and start with double T (which follows mini t) and you have not done all the previous steps involved in the program I use you may run into more problems. What I am saying here is that I don't know if your dog was ready for mini t so I really don't know if your dog was ready for double t. If you jump right into the program I use you will now have mixed 4 training programs.

If you want to train the dog yourself I would STRONGLEY SUGGEST you start from the beginning with ONE program and follow it through. If you have done some of the steps already do them over just to make sure the dog understands completely. If the dog does it wont take long at all. If you have someone that is an experienced dog trainer that can help and they feel the same way about sticking to one system use the program they use and when you have trouble they should be able to help you out. It's great that you want to do this yourself and great that you asked for help I commend you for that. Training a dog is not rocket science but it can get tricky when you lack experience.

For what it's worth I recommend Fowl Dawgs to all of my clients and pup buyers. If I am training a dog for someone I like them to own and be familiar with the program I use so they know how their dog was trained. If I sell a pup to someone and they train the dog themselves I recommend they also own and use fowl dawgs. In both cases if a problem comes up later they can call me and we can try to work it out together. Sometimes it can be done on the phone and sometimes they bring the dog over and we will get the dog going again. This only works because everyone is on the same page. Most of the time when I get a call to help someone they just did not get a previous step done completely or they for whatever reason thought they could skip something all together. That always puzzles me.

I have owned everyone's training material at one time. The stuff I have kept and use is the fowl dawgs and Lardy's TRT they are the same outline and sequence. I recommend fowl dawgs to all of my clients because it a great and complete program for $80.00 I really like the Lardy TRT as well but the entire program comes at a bit higher price.

I have used the word program so many times that I am sick of typing it. There may be some that will tell you don't need a "program" and will give you all kinds of reasons why not. Others will tell you how they mix 3 or 4 different programs and they have the best dog ever. I am not the most experienced guy on this forum, I have only trained a couple hundred dogs. (not sarcasm, that's not very many) The guys that have trained thousands are the ones I listen to and they gave me the same advice I gave you. Some will tell you Stawski and Lardy and Farmer don't train every dog exactly the same and I am sure that is true. I am sure if they were building one from the ground up (which I know Stawski does, not sure if the others mentioned still do a pup now and then or not) they would teach all the skills to every dog in the same order. That is the key and that is what is meant by "program" teaching each skill set in a particular order to best help the dog understand what is expected. Now I will repeat "EXPERIENCE IS A HUGE LUXURY" and I will not live long enough to train thousands of dogs so I will lean on the experience of those that have. Trust me I am still learning the benefits of doing things in the order I do them and I have trained hundreds of dogs. How many do you think you will train in your lifetime?

Cody I sure hope this helps, it sure helped me get through a 10 degree day when I was getting a bit stir crazy sitting in this house. Good luck with your dog and if I can be of any help just call me. I will be driving to Alabama on Saturday and will be just as bored as I was yesterday. Good luck with your dog and have fun.
 
#24 ·
Great post Tim.


QUOTE=TIM DOANE;1174905]Now we are getting somewhere. You don't need to watch the computer all day just be careful taking advice from someone that has no idea what you have done with your dog yet has the solution for your problem.

First of all I have NEVER seen anyone that's new to dog training (not trained A LOT of dogs) get good results by "sort of following a program" and most certainly not by mixing a bit of this guys methods with a bit of that guys methods. They may think they have but probably lack the experience to know any better. To follow a proven sequential process will provide your best opportunity to get the most from any dog. Experience is a HUGE luxury that you are lacking so to me it just makes sense to use as much of someone else's as you can. Once you commit to someone else's experience stay the course do not mix it with anything else and do each step completely.

Myself I would never try to run blinds with a dog that has just finished mini t. the program I follow involves several more steps before cold blinds. The steps I use that you have skipped will go a long way to help your dog not only gain confidence but also understand exactly what is expected when running a blind. Here is where things can get tricky because if you go to the outline of the program I use and start with double T (which follows mini t) and you have not done all the previous steps involved in the program I use you may run into more problems. What I am saying here is that I don't know if your dog was ready for mini t so I really don't know if your dog was ready for double t. If you jump right into the program I use you will now have mixed 4 training programs.

If you want to train the dog yourself I would STRONGLEY SUGGEST you start from the beginning with ONE program and follow it through. If you have done some of the steps already do them over just to make sure the dog understands completely. If the dog does it wont take long at all. If you have someone that is an experienced dog trainer that can help and they feel the same way about sticking to one system use the program they use and when you have trouble they should be able to help you out. It's great that you want to do this yourself and great that you asked for help I commend you for that. Training a dog is not rocket science but it can get tricky when you lack experience.

For what it's worth I recommend Fowl Dawgs to all of my clients and pup buyers. If I am training a dog for someone I like them to own and be familiar with the program I use so they know how their dog was trained. If I sell a pup to someone and they train the dog themselves I recommend they also own and use fowl dawgs. In both cases if a problem comes up later they can call me and we can try to work it out together. Sometimes it can be done on the phone and sometimes they bring the dog over and we will get the dog going again. This only works because everyone is on the same page. Most of the time when I get a call to help someone they just did not get a previous step done completely or they for whatever reason thought they could skip something all together. That always puzzles me.

I have owned everyone's training material at one time. The stuff I have kept and use is the fowl dawgs and Lardy's TRT they are the same outline and sequence. I recommend fowl dawgs to all of my clients because it a great and complete program for $80.00 I really like the Lardy TRT as well but the entire program comes at a bit higher price.

I have used the word program so many times that I am sick of typing it. There may be some that will tell you don't need a "program" and will give you all kinds of reasons why not. Others will tell you how they mix 3 or 4 different programs and they have the best dog ever. I am not the most experienced guy on this forum, I have only trained a couple hundred dogs. (not sarcasm, that's not very many) The guys that have trained thousands are the ones I listen to and they gave me the same advice I gave you. Some will tell you Stawski and Lardy and Farmer don't train every dog exactly the same and I am sure that is true. I am sure if they were building one from the ground up (which I know Stawski does, not sure if the others mentioned still do a pup now and then or not) they would teach all the skills to every dog in the same order. That is the key and that is what is meant by "program" teaching each skill set in a particular order to best help the dog understand what is expected. Now I will repeat "EXPERIENCE IS A HUGE LUXURY" and I will not live long enough to train thousands of dogs so I will lean on the experience of those that have. Trust me I am still learning the benefits of doing things in the order I do them and I have trained hundreds of dogs. How many do you think you will train in your lifetime?

Cody I sure hope this helps, it sure helped me get through a 10 degree day when I was getting a bit stir crazy sitting in this house. Good luck with your dog and if I can be of any help just call me. I will be driving to Alabama on Saturday and will be just as bored as I was yesterday. Good luck with your dog and have fun.[/QUOTE]
 
#27 ·
Try setting out a ladder of bumpers for him, place the first bumper at 15 yards and 5 more at 3-4 yards apart in a straight line leading to a small BP of 3 bumpers. Use white so he can see the next one coming up. After he gets this you can alternate using orange between the whites. You are teaching him to hold the line and keep moving until otherwise advised.
 
#31 · (Edited)
If the dog is putting his nose down this will only make the problem worse. I have used and seen this method to teach dogs to HUNT on a blind, vs. keep their head up and run. Not what we generally want in a competition retriever.

Read Tim Doane's response a couple of times Cody, and take it seriously.

Back up if you have to, pick a course and do things in order, and thoroughly...

It works.
 
#30 ·
No I don't. I train 10-15 mins at the time here and there when I can trying to balance keeping the training persistent and fresh with everything else I have going on. I should have kept a record and I thought about that the other day but I haven't so far. Maybe something I will start doing.
 
#33 ·
If anyone has already said this, I've overlooked it.

It used to be, before the advent of all of the "programs," that the best and almost universal advice given for a post like this one was "get hands-on help from an experienced trainer (amateur or pro)." In my opinion that's still the best approach. Yes, published materials have come a long way, and there are getting to be a lot of people who have achieved impressive things with their retrievers using them. But a good trainer can assess where your dog is now and what he needs to know (better than just "go back and do all the steps"), and can help you "read" your dog at each step of the way. If you develop a relationship with a pro (or a training group), you can get access to grounds to train on, feedback on your dog, and the opportunity to learn a great deal by watching other dogs work and learn.

North Carolina has a lot of retriever people. I'm starting to wonder if we might have the highest density of pros per square mile of any state.

There are also a lot of active clubs here and in South Carolina. "Join a club" is another piece of advice we used to hear all of the time, that is still good advice.

Amy Dahl
 
#43 ·
Sorry Amy it doesn't work that way. The dog doesn't watch the dvd the trainer does and then the trainer goes out and trains the dog. Still gotta work sister ;)

I do agree with getting together with a pro. In fact I suggested to the OP that if he could find a nearby pro that uses one of the programs he was using that it would be good to stick to that particular program so when he ran into trouble the pro would be able to help. You suggested a "good Pro" and I believe any good pro would want to know exactly what the op had done with the dog prior to seeking help. How nice would it be if the answer was I followed Fowl dawgs or TRT and completed each step all the way to double t. Seems to me that would be much easier than "I sort of followed smart works and duck dog basics and mixed in some 10 minute magic when I only had 10 minutes".

For me I love it when a pup buyer wants to train their own pup. I really like it when they get involved with more experienced people that can help them when their own lack of experience has them wondering if they are on the right track or if they run into trouble. I have found that when I get a call from a pup buyer or a client that is having an issue it is VERY helpful for everyone to be on the same page. What seems to get them in the most trouble is when they ask for help and get it from someone who never even bothered to ask them what skills they have taught the dog before they give advice.

What really puzzles me is why people would get there panties all bunched up because it was suggested to a novice dog trainer trying to train their own dog that they stick to a proven system to better their chance of getting as good of a result as dog and trainer are capable of. When I read all of the advice given to this young man on how to get a dog going on blinds when he has not even taught the dog to handle or even, as far as we know sit on a whistle and the big complaint is why is everyone telling him to stick to a "program" REALLY?

I hope he does start over and follow Rick Stawski or Mike Lardy so he can learn how one step builds towards another and how these dogs can learn so much if they are given a real chance at understanding what we are asking them to do. I am very glad I started with the $69.99 program as it has really helped me do a better job with the dogs I get a chance to work with. I really hope that I will learn as much in the next 5 years as I have in the last five years and I am really grateful to the folks that poured their hard work into making the $69.99 program so that I did not waste five years stumbling my way through just to get an understanding of what they taught me on their DVD's

A couple people in this thread have sent the OP a link to a knowlageble Pro, Nationally known, by the name of Farmer.

That link has an article titled "starting cold blinds."

Before Mr Farmer starts discussing blinds, he explaines what the pre~requisites are.
So, the OP got that information very early on, if he chose to read it, like maybe some of you should.

Its very good.
 
#45 ·
A couple people in this thread have sent the OP a link to a knowlageble Pro, Nationally known, by the name of Farmer.

That link has an article titled "starting cold blinds."

Before Mr Farmer starts discussing blinds, he explaines what the pre~requisites are.
So, the OP got that information very early on, if he chose to read it, like maybe some of you should.

Its very good.
So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
first thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting
wagon wheel."
And then asked him do you know what this means and do you know how to teach all of these skills and his answer was no what would you advise next?
 
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