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Thread: Silver Labs?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGatley View Post
    http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_r...d_standard.cfm

    Scroll down to color...

    At the end of the page is disqualifications.
    Thanks I read it. Still confused though between, British, Pointing, Silver, Canoe labs I just can't keep up with all the modern designs coming these days. I guess black suits me just fine!

    "This ain't Burger King, you don't get it your way"


    Backwater's Ole' Crow Medicine Show SH "Raven" BLF 7/26/11 (NFC FC AFC Hunter's Run Boo Boo x AFC Beat The Rush)
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  2. #12
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwater View Post
    Thanks I read it. Still confused though between, British, Pointing, Silver, Canoe labs I just can't keep up with all the modern designs coming these days. I guess black suits me just fine!
    Are you just trying to stir the pot? Fox red is not a new color, it is the original yellow color.
    Renee P

  3. #13
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    This lengthy rebuttal is being passed around on FB. It calls into question the premise of mix breeding with weimers that this open letter is founded upon using, in part, RTF posts.
    A few recent internet blog posts have been circulating in some Labrador breeder circles that have attempted to resurrect the previously disproven claims made by another internet poster within the last decade who called herself “WigWag." WigWag believed that since the two earliest known Silver Labrador lines that she researched (Culo and Beavercreek) had a few Labs from Kellogg Kennels back in their pedigrees, that this connection was the source of the dilute gene in Labradors. She added in some convenient hearsay to try to substantiate her claim. That claim then was posted and re-posted all over the internet by Silver Labrador haters as if it were fact. The problem is, no one ever bothered to actually see if her claim could be backed up with “facts.” Below is her claim, as posted by her, followed by a narrative investigating her claims. You be the judge as to the credibility of this claim.

    WigWag: "…So both Culo and Beavercreek lines can be traced directly back to Kellogg kennels which has been in existence since the 20's breeding hunting Labradors and many other retrievers and pointers and guess what? Yes Weimeraners. I know of one long timer who visited back in the 60's and said that puppies and dogs were running all over the farm and record keeping was not as strict as today so it would have been very easy for dogs to mix and breed. If a chocolate Labrador bred with a Weimeraner then her resulting all chocolate puppies would look like field type Labradors and would then be registered as Labradors. Another long timer remembers ads in Gun Dog magazine from the 50's advertising "gray Labradors" from Kellogg kennels." (In another version of this claim, she states “blue Labradors”)

    In this claim against silver Labradors, Wigwas brings up "the Kellogg connection." Regardless if Kellogg had Weims or not (the present owner, H.E. Kellogg, has said he knows of none), the claim is complete speculation based on supposed hearsay from two unnamed "long timers." Contrary to the rumors silver haters have propagated, for a time, Kellogg was one of the most popular and sought after kennels for Show lines (Dual purpose) in the early to mid 1900's, their foundation Labs being European imports. Many old US show lines are backed by Kellogg Labs. It is since the mid 1900's to the present that Kellogg has bred mostly field lines (specializing in, and advertising, pointing labs since the Early 90's). One would be hard pressed to find a field bred Lab in the US today that does not have Kellogg lines behind it at some point (were this weim-Kellogg claim true, there would be silver Labs everywhere today). Using WigWag's methods of "research," one could just as easily say, "All Silver Labs go back to Sandylands dogs from the UK" and be just as accurate as the Kellogg connection, since all the silver lines do go to the famed Sandylands Kennel as well (not just the Culo and Beavercreek lines, all of them do, which actually makes for a stronger dilute gene origin theory than just the two lines discussed going back to Kellogg). If you want to keep following pedigrees of the known Silver lines, they all go back to "Buccleuch Avon," considered the very "father" of the breed! As a researcher, she should know well that in order for a claim to be even considered, she must provide the full source. Not only in this claim, but throughout her posts, she consistently neglects this. Without giving an accurate source to independently corroborate her claim, anyone could make up a story like that and say "that is how it is" and then spread it across the internet.

    She introduces the idea, based on hearsay, for a Kellogg advertisement for "gray" or "blue" Labradors (she must be unsure which since she had publicly said both). This suffers from the same unnamed source problem as above, there is no way to substantiate the claim made unless one can find the actual advertisement. Even then, such an advertisement would only serve to prove that the dilute gene is an old gene in Labradors. So, let's find it, wait, what's that? Gun Dog Magazine was not in publication until 1980! It appears that in order for WigWag's claim to be true, Gun Dog Magazine would have to have published an edition 30 years before it even existed...no wonder she is having a hard time with remembering the color in the supposed ad. When this fact was recently brought to her attention, she once again changed her story to generically read “a gun dog magazine” not “Gun Dog magazine” as she claimed for nearly a decade! But it gets even more diabolical. WigWag was directly questioned about these problems in her claim, so what did she do? She went to the best "source" any researcher would use, an internet chat forum (tongue in cheek). So, in August 2010, many years after her initial claim of Kellogg breeding Weimaraners, she posted this inquiry:

    "I'm doing a bit of research and looking for anyone who may have visited Kellogg kennels a ways back (40 - 50 years ago). Did they breed Pointers and Weimeraners as well as Labradors? Thank you. http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=58767

    Her internet handle on that forum is "acandtwows" and can be verified as WigWag by some of her earlier posts, like this one: http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=26275. Of course no one could corroborate her claim for her, the responses were that Kellogg only bred Labradors.

    Perhaps something was missed here, but hadn't she claimed for nearly a decade to have a source for her Kellogg breeding Weims theory? Why would such a skilled researcher need something she already had? Could it be she never had it? Could it be the whole Kellogg Connection is part of a ploy to lay the blame on someone, anyone, other than the genome of breed itself for the existence of a Silver Labrador? It should be bluntly apparent that her “sources” and “facts” should be highly questioned if she cannot even do enough research to know when a publication did or did not exist; if she gets caught red-handed in an outright lie about the very premise she bases her Weimaraner corssbreeding theory on; if she adjusts her original claims once they have been disproven.

    In response to the question “Where do silver Labradors come from?” she wrote:
    "Well that's an interesting question and although we will never know "for sure" we do have some facts in history and can thus form a very strong hypothesis."
    You have now seen some of her "facts" and her resulting "very strong hypothesis," even if you do not view Silver Labs favorably, you cannot deny her hypothesis is actually devoid of facts and is full of holes, to put it nicely.

    Here are some facts that we do know for sure from actual documented breed history that form a much stronger hypothesis.
    Other breeds that also originate from the island of Newfoundland, and either directly descend from, or often interbred with the St. john’s Water Dog (the Labrador's progenitor), also possess the dilution gene (the Newfoundland and the Chesapeake Bay Retriever). The majority of reported outcrosses used in development of the Labrador breed also possess the dilution gene. No, the Weimaraner was not one of them, and no, the Weimaraner does not descend from the St. John’s Water Dog. It is way more likely that the dilution gene has been part of the Labrador breed genome since its inception and development than a Weimaraner ever being bred into it.

    The ongoing attempts to discredit Kellogg Kennels such as is displayed in this "open letter" are deplorable attempts by individuals who desire nothing more than to lay blame and spread their hate for Silver Labradors. These attacks are an affront to the majority of Labrador Retrievers in America, whose pedigreed heritage trace to this long-standing Kennel. If your preconceptions are such as to not believe the information posted here, feel free to do your own research. There is nothing better than for people to find truth for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Are you just trying to stir the pot? Fox red is not a new color, it is the original yellow color.
    It doesn't take much to stir the pot on RTF, seems most get bent out of shape about most anything here. New people get attacked without mercy and then like a pack of wolves the rest join in for the kill. When I first found out abut this forum I posted an honest question about a HRC hunt test. It was an honest question not a bitch. Well...the wolves came out and just attacked since then don't really give a sh....t what most think. Seems this is the MO they do to most new people. This isn't all, so not directed at the few who don't do this, but most do.

    I will occasionally look here during the winter when it -20 here but if I got time to post thousand of times like many wouldn't have anytime to train or hunt my just talk about doing it.

    So to answer your question,,,don't care.

    "This ain't Burger King, you don't get it your way"


    Backwater's Ole' Crow Medicine Show SH "Raven" BLF 7/26/11 (NFC FC AFC Hunter's Run Boo Boo x AFC Beat The Rush)
    Backwater's Gun Powder 'N' Lead "Trigger" BLF 6/30/12 ( FC AFC CJ's Mister T x FC Queen Winhelmina of the Netherlands)
    Backwater's Biker Trash "Scooter" BLM 9/6/2013 (FC AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger x Good Ideas Windy Retreezer QAA)

  5. #15
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    Jack Vanderwyk
    Who he? What axe he grind?

    The cost quoted for a DNA test is JAWAG, but whatever it is it won't be cheap, and if it really is conclusive those are exactly the reasons why the breeders in the show / designer dog fraternity won't play ball. Why pay good money to prove their dogs aren't qualified for competition, or aren't genuine Labs? The implication is that it will be left to the working dog fraternities on both sides of the pond to take "unofficial" action, just as we do with health issues. I have deep sentiments of no enthusiasm for the Kennel Club, they are a millstone round the neck of the sporting breeds, and I hereby predict that in ten years time the business of "silver" Labs (in the UK at any rate) will be in just exactly the same fine mess as it is now. Having said that I find no evidence of the b******s putting in a appearance here; no one is advertising them.

    Eug
    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

  6. #16
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Jack Vanderwyk
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    Who he? What axe he grind?
    Actually, Eug, 'fraid you've misidentified the old boy - the name's Art Vandelay, of the import/export dodge, at your service.

    You also seem to have missed the crux of Mr. Vandelay's commentary:

    The cause of these concerns lies in the fact that more and more dogs are imported from the United States, with pedigree certificates from the American Kennel Club (AKC), which state that the dogs are Labrador Retrievers with the colours black, yellow or chocolate...
    This goes against all reason for gamefinding - why, the gall and chutzpah of importing Labs from the United States! Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...

    MG

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwater View Post
    I'm confused....red is yellow??? so why can't silver be chocolate?
    Looks like only way to figure this out is through DNA.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...
    Apologies for and no offence meant by any political incorrectness - that should be, according to the positive grammar training put forth by the master propagandist, "the inevitable Native American Canoe Labs."

    MG

  9. #19
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    MG, No, I got the general drift but missed Herr Art Vandelay as the author. So to repeat the question, who is he, what does he do and what's his axe? I know what his gripe is.

    I know I'm only half sentient and don't get round much anyway, but I've never see or heard of a Silver lab on these shores, or of a breeder or importer. Evidence?

    Eug
    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

  10. #20
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Actually, Eug, 'fraid you've misidentified the old boy - the name's Art Vandelay, of the import/export dodge, at your service.

    You also seem to have missed the crux of Mr. Vandelay's commentary:



    This goes against all reason for gamefinding - why, the gall and chutzpah of importing Labs from the United States! Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...

    MG
    Jack Vanderwyk does exist and I believe that the open letter is a post on one of his blogs. Google him. He's Dutch.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

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