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Thread: Silver Labs?

  1. #131
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    The Canine Genome Project was the subject of a lead article in National Geographic. I read the article last year, but don't know what month or if it was even current. Regardless, it was a fascinating article that went way beyond color issues. The objective is to find ways to improve human health, but on the way they made some great observations about breeding for one trait bringing all kinds of unlooked for consequences. Anyway, I would not doubt Amy's comments for sure!
    Carol,
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  2. #132
    Senior Member DEDEYE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalone67 View Post
    Because Fox reds carry the right genetic codes proving they are in fact a shade of yellow.
    Silvers carry a dd which is not found in labs, but only in Wiemeraners.
    I will come on as a haircolorist here, and as an owner of light yellow and DARK (fox red) yellow dogs.. Genetics aside.. All the ladies on here know when they get their hair bleached, the first thing that appears is a lovely reddish tone. Keep processing and you get orange, dark gold, light gold, yellow, white.. My point is, yellow and gold are all part of red, underlying tones etc. Some ladies will come in and tell me their hair looks RED to them when it is actually Gold which is YELLOW.. Here is a pic of the puppies my dog just had.. As puppies you can see that they are all shades of yellow.. The dark ones will be red, and so on..

    Silver is NOT a color under black or chocolate. It is its own color. We get paid as stylists to add it, or take it away..

    There, you have it. A little morning hairdresser talk about dog haircolor.. I will leave the genetics to you all...
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  3. #133
    Senior Member afdahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEDEYE View Post

    There, you have it. A little morning hairdresser talk about dog haircolor.. I will leave the genetics to you all...
    .482552_10203081908147511_966147528_n.jpg
    OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.

    In general, the ginger/red/tan/orange/yellow/cream colors all come from phaeomelanin, a pigment that is chemically distinct from the eumelanin that gives black, brown, and gray/blue/silver. It sounds as though bleach takes out the eumelanin first, and the phaeomelanin more slowly.

    Amy Dahl

  4. #134
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.

    ...

    Amy Dahl
    I think she was talking about colors not found in nature
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
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  5. #135
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.

    In general, the ginger/red/tan/orange/yellow/cream colors all come from phaeomelanin, a pigment that is chemically distinct from the eumelanin that gives black, brown, and gray/blue/silver. It sounds as though bleach takes out the eumelanin first, and the phaeomelanin more slowly.

    Amy Dahl
    So I'm yellow factored!?...I'll add that to my stud page
    Shawn White

    HR Big Creek Retrievers Independence Day JH QAA "Indy "

  6. #136
    Senior Member DEDEYE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.

    In general, the ginger/red/tan/orange/yellow/cream colors all come from phaeomelanin, a pigment that is chemically distinct from the eumelanin that gives black, brown, and gray/blue/silver. It sounds as though bleach takes out the eumelanin first, and the phaeomelanin more slowly.

    Amy Dahl
    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    I think she was talking about colors not found in nature
    LOL A little bit of both. You girls have a fab day...
    Princess Darla of Nottingham MH ***
    Copper's Darlin' Rascal "Spanky" ***
    Spanky's Darlin Rascal "Wheezy"

    Yellow dogs rule the world!

  7. #137

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    I have read most of this thread, I agree Black Yellow Chocolate is all the colors. I have seen another breed or breed type that is crossed with labs. That is American Pit Bull Terrior. They have Diluted genes also. Seal, Blue, and Tri color. I am no genetis just say'n.

    Tony

  8. #138
    Senior Member Nicole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years.
    Unless you and/or your good authority actually wants to show proof (pictures of dogs, pedigrees and dna parentage tests), it's no better than hearsay.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years. That is, from Dr. Mark Neff, a UCBerkeley researcher on the Canine Genome project, who has collected reports and pedigrees from breeders who have unexpectedly had "silvers" appear in litters. "You wouldn't believe" some of the bloodlines in which they are appearing; pedigree analysis shows the presence of the allele in the breed to go far back.

    I trained a black Lab sired by a silver, and he was quite a good dog. I trained a silver bitch and she was difficult, but she was reared in a home with her dam, never separated, and that by itself could account for the poor training response, so I can't infer much about silvers from that. I did think she was ugly, not because she had the fineness typical of tightly-bred dogs, but because her structure was poor--narrow chest, turned-out front legs, stuff like that. She did have a typical Lab head fwiw.

    I would certainly concur that breeding selectively for any one trait decreases one's ability to select for all other traits, and that breeding for two color recessives (b and d) necessarily means intense selection for color, thereby greatly reducing selection for anything else. I also take pedigrees with a dose of salt--so many ways for the parents of a puppy not to be who they are purported to be. DNA profiling, of course, helps with that.

    Taken all together, I oppose the purposeful breeding of silvers because I think part of a breeder's responsibility is to maintain the essence or definition of the breed. Granted the Lab is a mix of older breeds, but it is a mix that was created with a purpose and image in mind. Reducing, not promoting, the variability inherent in the mix, and striving toward a standard, is part of defining, creating, and maintaining the breed. On the other hand, I don't get as excited as some here about it. We have a huge market for fad dogs providing motivation to the doodle and poo and silver breeders, and unless we can educate the public, trying to counter that motivation by force is a losing proposition IMHO. Pollution of the gene pool is not something I'm worried about. As long as they are crummy dogs, nobody trying to breed for working ability or show is going to cross to them, so they will stay in their own little corner. And thanks to DNA testing, anyone who wants to eliminate the allele from their breeding stock can easily do it in one generation.

    Concerns about the gene pool are more in the opposite direction--loss of diversity, much more than presence of something unwanted. Unwanted stuff can always be bred out, but diversity, once lost, can never be regained once the stud book is closed.

    Amy Dahl
    Hi
    I really believe the answer is DNA testing. That will determine if it's a lab or an outcrossing.
    I had DNA test done on myself, very informative (I am not a lab)

  10. #140
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Towler View Post
    Hi
    I really believe the answer is DNA testing. That will determine if it's a lab or an outcrossing.
    I had DNA test done on myself, very informative (I am not a lab)
    Maybe in the future, but I don't think the DNA tests available now are sophisticated enough to detect a skeleton in the closet if it's several generations back. The guy who bred the Weims and Labs and started the whole silver frenzy in the late 80s, from Crist Culo kennels, at one point offered a $100,000 reward for anyone that could "prove" his dogs weren't Labs. Back then, all a DNA test could prove was that the parents were those stated on the pedigree, and even that only if both parents were available for testing. You could have a registered "Lab" that had grandparent(s) that were Lab x Weim crosses and DNA wouldn't catch it. Even with all the advances, I doubt you could prove with today's DNA testing, that there are other breeds 4 or 5 generations back in a pedigree.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

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