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Thread: Silver Labs?

  1. #141
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    Maybe in the future, but I don't think the DNA tests available now are sophisticated enough to detect a skeleton in the closet if it's several generations back. The guy who bred the Weims and Labs and started the whole silver frenzy in the late 80s, from Crist Culo kennels, at one point offered a $100,000 reward for anyone that could "prove" his dogs weren't Labs. Back then, all a DNA test could prove was that the parents were those stated on the pedigree, and even that only if both parents were available for testing. You could have a registered "Lab" that had grandparent(s) that were Lab x Weim crosses and DNA wouldn't catch it. Even with all the advances, I doubt you could prove with today's DNA testing, that there are other breeds 4 or 5 generations back in a pedigree.
    That may be the case, I am skilled trades at Fords, not a genetics expert. I will say, I was amazed to find out thru DNA testing , how far back they can map out human DNA. In my case, it would seem 75,000 +

  2. #142
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Towler View Post
    That may be the case, I am skilled trades at Fords, not a genetics expert. I will say, I was amazed to find out thru DNA testing , how far back they can map out human DNA. In my case, it would seem 75,000 +
    Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
    That's what a DNA test will tell you.

    I don't think many people understand what a DNA test, tests.

    Each Parent has a pair of Alleles in each Locus of it's DNA and it gives one of these to each of it's offspring. These Alleles are either Dominant or Recessive.

    Each Locus is an "address" to a "switch" that controls something like coat color.

    By looking at the Alleles in several Loci of an animal, and comparing them to the Alleles in the same Loci of a potential Parent, the DNA can be matched. Or, show that a match doesn't exist.

    For instance, if a pup is eeBBDD, both Parents would have to have at LEAST one recessive in the E locus. If the DNA of the dog that you are looking at is EE, that dog is NOT the pup's Parent.

    That's just looking at one Locus, and it ruled out a whole lot of potential Parents.
    However, in order to determine that a specific dog IS the Parent, you would need to match at many more Loci.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 01-26-2014 at 09:50 PM.

  3. #143
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
    That's what a DNA test will tell you.

    I don't think many people understand what a DNA test, tests.

    Each Parent has a pair of Alleles in each Locus of it's DNA and it gives one of these to each of it's offspring. These Alleles are either Dominant or Recessive.

    Each Locus is an "address" to a "switch" that controls something like coat color.

    By looking at the Alleles in several Loci of an animal, and comparing them to the Alleles in the same Loci of a potential Parent, the DNA can be matched. Or, show that a match doesn't exist.

    For instance, if a pup is eeBBDD, both Parents would have to have at LEAST one recessive in the E locus. If the DNA of the dog that you are looking at is EE, that dog is NOT the pup's Parent.

    That's just looking at one Locus, and it ruled out a whole lot of potential Parents.
    However, in order to determine that a specific dog IS the Parent, you would need to match at many more Loci.
    Ok, that makes sense. I hope that down the road, someone can come up with a reliable test for breed determination.

  4. #144
    Member Jere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
    That's what a DNA test will tell you.

    I don't think many people understand what a DNA test, tests.

    Each Parent has a pair of Alleles in each Locus of it's DNA and it gives one of these to each of it's offspring. These Alleles are either Dominant or Recessive.

    Each Locus is an "address" to a "switch" that controls something like coat color.

    By looking at the Alleles in several Loci of an animal, and comparing them to the Alleles in the same Loci of a potential Parent, the DNA can be matched. Or, show that a match doesn't exist.

    For instance, if a pup is eeBBDD, both Parents would have to have at LEAST one recessive in the E locus. If the DNA of the dog that you are looking at is EE, that dog is NOT the pup's Parent.

    That's just looking at one Locus, and it ruled out a whole lot of potential Parents.
    However, in order to determine that a specific dog IS the Parent, you would need to match at many more Loci.
    Referencing the first bolded statement above: This is not generally true. Some do, some don't. But it doesn't make any difference here.

    Referencing the second bolded statement: This is what a typical parentage DNA test does, as far as I know. Back in 2011, when the last AKC DNA profile I saw was run for comparison to the putative parents of a litter, they were using a collection of "markers" called the SuperPlex-G Panel. This was a collection of 13 "Markers." These "markers" were not genes per se, but are inherited the same way genes are. And each "marker" can have several distinct forms (as many as five for some of the "markers" in the examples they supplied with the test results) just as the alleles of a gene can.

    Failure of match of pup to parents (an "exclusion) at one "marker" does not rule out parentage but at two or more does - according to the AKC (The pup I have the profile for shows one "exclusion" but its phenotype (almost) certainly supports parentage by the two claimed dogs.)

    At that time I couldn't find any definitive information on the "markers" they were using. They are probably "proprietary." There may be patents.

    If there is interest in the full brochure, I suggest email to dna@akc.org. It is protected by copyright so I won't post it here. Google 'MMI genomics "canine heritage"' to get some more information as well. I'm not endorsing any product or service - just pointing to information.

    Jere

  5. #145
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
    That's what a DNA test will tell you..
    There are many companies offering a DNA breed identification tests it is mostly done for those who wish to see what kind've mix their dogs are, and what disease they maybe prone to later. A few studies have been on going to correctly identify shelter dogs, who before have been entirely based on what the pup looks like, which unsurprisingly doesn't hold up when genetics are tested. The wisdom panel is the probably the most well-known and most selective. While I'm sure that the test has limitations, it can identify a 100% pure-bred, vs. a cross several generations back for all the AKC recognized breeds, and a few more. If I had a Silver, I'd probably test it, if it came back 100% Labrador, I'd have something to show people. Still if the dd gene is a marker that doesn't identify as Lab you might have an issue, but if it's the only wacky gene out of all of them tested you've got a pretty good argument for saying it was hidden in the Lab genome.

    http://www.wisdompanel.com/why_test_your_dog/

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...1#.UuaSQfvTlpQ
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 01-27-2014 at 11:27 AM.
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  6. #146
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    There are many companies offering a DNA breed identification tests.....
    And they are all scams.

  7. #147
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    ALL breeds of dogs were created from other breeds of dogs.

    Every single one of them.

    A breed is "complete" when we have selectively removed ALL of the Recessive Alleles and/or ALL of the Dominant Alleles from specific Loci in the dogs that fall within the registry.

    That way, it's not possible for two dogs within the registry to produce offspring that express a Dominant or Recessive trait that is not found within the breed.

    No matter what two dogs are bred within the registry, you will never spontaneously produce a Recessive, or Dominant Allele, where neither Parent has one.

    These traits are not found within a breed, for the simple reason that they were intentionally removed from the breed.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 01-27-2014 at 11:41 AM.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    And they are all scams.
    Hmm such scams seem to have a lot of science behind it, all analyzed by computer algorithms etc and several noteworthy publications. They even address the foundation breed question. All based on the same technology and the same little gene sequences used identify EIC-CNM, any other heritable trait, perhaps all genetic science is just a scam. But until that is conclusively proven, I'll continue to advise people to do their own research

    http://www.wisdompanel.com/why_test_your_dog/faqs/
    "They's Just DAWGS"
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    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
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  9. #149
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Pseudoscience ain't Science.

    They are ALL scams.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    ALL breeds of dogs were created from other breeds of dogs.

    Every single one of them.

    A breed is "complete" when we have selectively removed ALL of the Recessive Alleles and/or ALL of the Dominant Alleles from specific Loci in the dogs that fall within the registry.

    That way, it's not possible for two dogs within the registry to produce offspring that express a Dominant or Recessive trait that is not found within the breed.

    No matter what two dogs are bred within the registry, you will never spontaneously produce a Recessive, or Dominant Allele, where neither Parent has one.

    These traits are not found within a breed, for the simple reason that they were intentionally removed from the breed.
    I don't know squat about genetics or breeding but I do question how this could have been done considering breeds were created over a hundred years ago when they didn't know what DNA was. This "silver" gene was obviously in the wolf from which all dogs derive. How could they say FOR CERTAIN that there was not a single Labradoe that carried it?

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