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Thread: Silver Labs?

  1. #191
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Beil View Post
    The problem with the Silver breeders is that they are taking a fairly rare (it would seem) recessive and breeding for it and keeping those dogs in the registry. So, over time there will be more and more of them, and ain't nobody got time for dat. Once that happens, as Bridget posted, there will need to be a genetic test to check for the dilute carrier, in order not to have litters with the undesirable non-conforming color.

    I have no problem with folks breeding to have whatever kind, type, color, etc they want, but make it your own breed or cross - Labradoodle for example, and don't dishonestly register these dogs as Chocolate Labradors because they're not. For breeders to breed for them and then market them to the ignorant masses as somehow being a rare and desirable color is just flat out lying.

    As Copterdoc said, the breed would be theoretically complete/finished when all of the non-conforming recessives are bred out of the gene pool. Not something that seems really possible, but that should really be the goal of breeding, to further the breed by eliminating the non-conforming genes where possible, and the silver breeders are doing exactly the opposite of that which is detrimental to the breed.



    Since when is this the definition of a breed? Scientists do not even agree on the definition of a species.

    So do you think we should breed out the recessives that lead to Dudleys?

    Or how about we breed out the recessive genes that lead to the dogs being too tall, or too short? How about those recessives that occasionally show up and produce white patches or brindles?

    If you are going to throw out silvers, then you need to cull all the labs out there that don't meet the standard in other ways.

    Mine has got a white on her foot. Uh oh.
    Renee P

  2. #192
    Member Jere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I can't reply directly to Jere's last post, due to the way that it was quoted.
    1. In answer to the question. All of them.

    2. If you are looking at spontaneous mutation as the basis for the "silver" Lab, I say that you are hearing hoofbeats, and looking for Zebras.

    3. And it doesn't matter how the Recessive d came to be in these lines anyway.
    These Breeders are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it.

    If they honestly came across it by accident, they would have neutered the Sire, spayed the Dam, and not registered the litter.

    That's not what they did.

    They bred Daughters to Sires, Dams to Sons, and Brothers to Sisters. And they continued to register the offspring that was produced.

    They INTENTIONALLY reproduced it.
    For the almighty dollar.
    Emphasis is mine - to help you follow the reply and reply back should you want.

    1. Surely you're joking!
    a. No registry defines the standard in terms of genotype. You must know that.
    b. By your reasoning, if the product of any breeding of two registered dogs results in a non-conforming pup, then the pups, the parents, grandparents, ... back to all living ancestors and their progeny, their progeny's progeny etc. must be removed from the records of the registry and DQ'd from all venues sponsored by the registry or its affiliates!
    c. b. isn't gonna happen and isn't reasonable or rational because breed standards are defined by phenotype not genotype and the two are very different wrt many characteristics.

    2. No, I'm not making this claim. Simply pointing out it is a possibility. In reality, probably some of the d's presently to be found in the general population of LRs did arise via this route.

    3. True, but unfortunately that's the American way.

    This dilution allele thing is only a cosmetic issue any way. Could there be "natural ability" traits in danger too? Maybe I'll start a new thread.

    Jere
    Last edited by Jere; 01-28-2014 at 03:48 PM. Reason: correct punctuation

  3. #193
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    Let's take the argument that the silver is caused by a weim cross. So what?

    If we look at the Dalmatian/pointer backcross project that sought to correct uric acid production in Dalmatians, it was generally accepted that by the seventh generation after outcrossing, the dogs were in effect purebred Dalmatians again -- and healthier than before.

    http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/abo...h_research.htm

    So, if weims were crossed in at some point (not saying they were), big deal...at what point would they be considered purebred Labs again?

    If you say 'never,' regardless of number of generations, phenotype, temperament, et al., you're ignoring the evolution of purebred dogs wholesale.

  4. #194
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    I think the main thing was that it is a misconception to assume that color is independent of all other traits.

    Amy Dahl
    I think that was pretty well illustrated in the Russian fox domestication project, which solved the riddle of how dogs came to have so many different coat types despite being descended from gray wolves. I.e., the same gene that controls tameness affects coat color, pattern, etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

  5. #195
    Senior Member Jerry Beil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    [/B]

    Since when is this the definition of a breed? Scientists do not even agree on the definition of a species.

    So do you think we should breed out the recessives that lead to Dudleys?

    Or how about we breed out the recessive genes that lead to the dogs being too tall, or too short? How about those recessives that occasionally show up and produce white patches or brindles?

    If you are going to throw out silvers, then you need to cull all the labs out there that don't meet the standard in other ways.

    Mine has got a white on her foot. Uh oh.
    Mine has a little white spot on her chin. The other one is god forbid yellow!

    Not suggesting that we can eliminate all of the undesirable/non conforming traits, or that this should even be the primary consideration when breeding, but it should be a consideration. If you were crossing your white footed dog with my white chinned dog and trying to get a line of polka-dotted labs then you would be damaging the breed because you're not breeding a dog for the positive traits that make the breed better, but rather you're intentionally trying to breed dogs that are contrary to the standard. Would you breed a brindle? Perhaps if the dog was so strong otherwise that the positive characteristics that dog could contribute to the gene pool were a net plus, but otherwise I'd think no, not ever. And it would be wrong and damaging to the breed to intentionally breed brindle to brindle etc to get a line of "special rare brindle labs".

    The idea of a finished or completed breed isn't something that's possible for a number of reasons, but it's a valid concept for this discussion, and as a target when breeding. As a rule it's not a good idea to breed dogs that have disqualifying traits, and it's absolutely not a good idea to breed dogs to intentionally perpetuate non conforming traits as the primary goal.
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  6. #196
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    It's not about breeding recessives out as much as it's about not breeding them in.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  7. #197
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    It's not about breeding recessives out as much as it's about not breeding them in.
    What if they were, in fact, there from the beginning -- from the St. John's water dog and/or Newfoundland? Almost all retrievers descend from these two dogs.

  8. #198
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyMouth View Post
    What if they were, in fact, there from the beginning -- from the St. John's water dog and/or Newfoundland? Almost all retrievers descend from these two dogs.
    Almost is the operative word.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  9. #199
    Senior Member SloppyMouth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    Almost is the operative word.
    Okay, the Chessie and the Lab...do Chessies possess the dilute gene?

  10. #200
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyMouth View Post
    Okay, the Chessie and the Lab...do Chessies possess the dilute gene?
    I'd guess yes, since the "ash" color pops up on rare ocassion, but I don't know if the genetics have been tested for the dd.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

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