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Silver Labs?

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#1 ·
Open Letter to The Kennel Club (U.K.)

Posted on January 8, 2014 by Jack Vanderwyk


The Kennel Club
Attn governance

Copy to: the Labrador Breed Council; the Labrador Clubs in the United Kingdom

Dear Board members of The Kennel club,

The Kennel Club maintains the studbook of the Labrador Retriever and has the task of ensuring that only purebred Labradors are registered in the studbook .
In that respect, it seems that the registry of the Labrador Retriever is about to go wrong, or has already gone wrong. This concerns not only me, but also the Labrador Clubs in the United Kingdom and abroad.

The cause of these concerns lies in the fact that more and more dogs are imported from the United States, with pedigree certificates from the American Kennel Club (AKC), which state that the dogs are Labrador Retrievers with the colours black, yellow or chocolate, while in reality these are dogs that are carriers of the so-called “dilute” (dd) gene. The dd gene is characterized by a “diluted” coat colour and light eyes, which are called “charcoal” or “blue” if the base colour is black, “champagne” if the base colour is yellow, and “silver” if the base colour is chocolate. In particular, the “silvers” are becoming more and more popular with the general public and substantial amounts of money are paid for puppies and adult dogs.

On first sight it seems that there is nothing to worry about these practices, because these dogs are imported with the recognized colours on their pedigree certificates, and as such they can formally be entered in the Kennel Club studbook. However, the duties of the Kennel Club as keeper of the studbook surpass that of formally administrator. One can not pretend that nothing is wrong, only because of the fact that the paperwork looks okay.

The fact is that the “dilute” (dd) gene or locus is alien to the Labrador Retriever breed. This gene is simply not present in the breed as we know it. In order to keep the studbook closed, and maintain the purity of the Labrador Retriever breed, the Kennel Club should ensure that no genes alien to the breed are entering the breed. Covert operations like opening a closed studbook in a sneaky way is not what the public expects from a respectable organization like the Kennel Club.

In the United Kingdom it was never possible to register dogs with the “dilute” (dd) gene as Labrador Retrievers. Until recently. The “dilute” (dd) gene surfaced in the United States in the late forties and early fifties of the last century. In those years there were no DNA tests available, and unfortunately these dogs were registered as Labrador Retrievers. The breeder who produced these dogs, Mayo Kellogg from Kellogg Kennels, was an important customer of the American Kennel Club (AKC). Kellogg bred several breeds, including the Weimaraner, a breed which carries the “dilute” (dd), and the dogs often ran free. Initially these dogs were registered as “silver”, until the Labrador Retriever Club Inc. (LRC), the parent club of the American Labrador Retriever clubs, objected against these practices. From that moment the “dilute” (dd) dogs were registered with the recognized three coat colours of the Labrador Retriever.

More than half a century later we sadly have to observe that the American studbook of the Labrador Retriever, as maintained by the American Kennel Club (AKC), contains more than 35,000 dogs that carry the “dilute” (dd) gene. Not all carriers are also phenotypically affected. However, these dogs that only carry the gene are passing it on to their offspring. This means that we simply can not be satisfied with a phenotypical (” by eye”) check, let alone by simply looking at an AKC pedigree certificate. Genetic research of these dogs by means of DNA tests will need to take place to make sure that the stud book stays closed. Any presence of the “dilute” (dd) genes in the Labrador Retriever is unacceptable.

Three renowned genetic laboratories, Vetgen, Laboklin, and the Van Haeringen Group, have confirmed to me in writing that it is perfectly possible to show the presence of the “dilute” (dd) gene. These studies have already been developed and can be used today. The costs are about 50 pounds.

Now science has progressed, it can be shown that the DNA of a dog contains genes which are alien to the Labrador Retriever breed, which means that such a dog CAN NOT be a purebred Labrador Retriever. Kennel Clubs, including the AKC, are increasingly under fire because of these extremely bad and dangerous developments, which need to stop here and now. It’s only a matter of time before the first lawsuit in the United States against the American Kennel Club appears, as the AKC in their pedigree certificates quite wrongfully gives the impression that these “dilutes” are purebred Labrador Retrievers. If the National Kennel Clubs are not willing or able to effectively guarantee or monitor the purity of a dog, then who is? And what is the value of a pedigree certificate?

The National Kennel Clubs have the means to prevent non-purebred dogs to enter the studbooks. If in doubt about the presence of the “dilute” (dd) gene in Labrador Retrievers, one should require the applicant of a pedigree certificate to proof that this particular dog or litter is free from the “dilute” (dd) gene, by means of DNA testing by accredited laboratories.
I would like to ask the Board of the Kennel Club to require that any Labrador Retriever that is imported in the United Kingdom has to show the results of a DNA test proving that the dog is free from the “dilute” (dd) gene. This should also apply to any Labrador Retriever when there are doubts about the purity, regarding the presence of the “dilute” (dd) gene.

Finally, I would like to ask the Board of the Kennel Club to look into the practices of registering “dilutes” with the remark “Colour Not Recognized”. Although these practices might seem to be effective, they are not. Breeders and owners of “dilutes” are clever enough to register their dogs with the recognized colours black, yellow and chocolate, and some Kennel Clubs, like the AKC, willfully cooperate with these frauds. A “silver” Labrador is not a chocolate Labrador, a “charcoal” Labrador is not a black Labrador, and a “champagne” Labrador is not a yellow Labrador, not even when a foreign Kennel Club has registered the dog as such. They are simply not purebred Labradors. The task of the Kennel Club is to guard the purity of the breed. This is a very serious task .Should it turn out that the Kennel Club is not willing to take this task seriously (enough), then there is always the possibility to let the Courts decide about these issues.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Vanderwyk
 
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#4 ·
So where are these "Fox Red" Labradors coming from also?
 
#14 ·
Are you just trying to stir the pot? Fox red is not a new color, it is the original yellow color.
It doesn't take much to stir the pot on RTF, seems most get bent out of shape about most anything here. New people get attacked without mercy and then like a pack of wolves the rest join in for the kill. When I first found out abut this forum I posted an honest question about a HRC hunt test. It was an honest question not a bitch. Well...the wolves came out and just attacked since then don't really give a sh....t what most think. Seems this is the MO they do to most new people. This isn't all, so not directed at the few who don't do this, but most do.

I will occasionally look here during the winter when it -20 here but if I got time to post thousand of times like many wouldn't have anytime to train or hunt my just talk about doing it.

So to answer your question,,,don't care.
 
#39 ·
It doesn't take much to stir the pot on RTF, seems most get bent out of shape about most anything here. New people get attacked without mercy and then like a pack of wolves the rest join in for the kill. When I first found out abut this forum I posted an honest question about a HRC hunt test. It was an honest question not a bitch. Well...the wolves came out and just attacked since then don't really give a sh....t what most think. Seems this is the MO they do to most new people. This isn't all, so not directed at the few who don't do this, but most do.

I will occasionally look here during the winter when it -20 here but if I got time to post thousand of times like many wouldn't have anytime to train or hunt my just talk about doing it.

So to answer your question,,,don't care.
Well now you are just being silly. :eek: Few RTFers will sacrifice hunting or training time to post here! That's what work is for! :razz:

I do not remember the thread of which you speak, in which you, as a virgin RTFer were attacked. I looked through your old posts and could not find it. I am sorry that happened to you, that is not right.

Meanwhile I have noticed posts by you in which virgin RTFers ask for training advice, and you give them ugly opinions about their dogs. You declare that you would not feed such dogs.

Wow.

Rule number 1: don't insult someone's dog.

Carry on...
 
#13 ·
This lengthy rebuttal is being passed around on FB. It calls into question the premise of mix breeding with weimers that this open letter is founded upon using, in part, RTF posts.
A few recent internet blog posts have been circulating in some Labrador breeder circles that have attempted to resurrect the previously disproven claims made by another internet poster within the last decade who called herself “WigWag." WigWag believed that since the two earliest known Silver Labrador lines that she researched (Culo and Beavercreek) had a few Labs from Kellogg Kennels back in their pedigrees, that this connection was the source of the dilute gene in Labradors. She added in some convenient hearsay to try to substantiate her claim. That claim then was posted and re-posted all over the internet by Silver Labrador haters as if it were fact. The problem is, no one ever bothered to actually see if her claim could be backed up with “facts.” Below is her claim, as posted by her, followed by a narrative investigating her claims. You be the judge as to the credibility of this claim.

WigWag: "…So both Culo and Beavercreek lines can be traced directly back to Kellogg kennels which has been in existence since the 20's breeding hunting Labradors and many other retrievers and pointers and guess what? Yes Weimeraners. I know of one long timer who visited back in the 60's and said that puppies and dogs were running all over the farm and record keeping was not as strict as today so it would have been very easy for dogs to mix and breed. If a chocolate Labrador bred with a Weimeraner then her resulting all chocolate puppies would look like field type Labradors and would then be registered as Labradors. Another long timer remembers ads in Gun Dog magazine from the 50's advertising "gray Labradors" from Kellogg kennels." (In another version of this claim, she states “blue Labradors”)

In this claim against silver Labradors, Wigwas brings up "the Kellogg connection." Regardless if Kellogg had Weims or not (the present owner, H.E. Kellogg, has said he knows of none), the claim is complete speculation based on supposed hearsay from two unnamed "long timers." Contrary to the rumors silver haters have propagated, for a time, Kellogg was one of the most popular and sought after kennels for Show lines (Dual purpose) in the early to mid 1900's, their foundation Labs being European imports. Many old US show lines are backed by Kellogg Labs. It is since the mid 1900's to the present that Kellogg has bred mostly field lines (specializing in, and advertising, pointing labs since the Early 90's). One would be hard pressed to find a field bred Lab in the US today that does not have Kellogg lines behind it at some point (were this weim-Kellogg claim true, there would be silver Labs everywhere today). Using WigWag's methods of "research," one could just as easily say, "All Silver Labs go back to Sandylands dogs from the UK" and be just as accurate as the Kellogg connection, since all the silver lines do go to the famed Sandylands Kennel as well (not just the Culo and Beavercreek lines, all of them do, which actually makes for a stronger dilute gene origin theory than just the two lines discussed going back to Kellogg). If you want to keep following pedigrees of the known Silver lines, they all go back to "Buccleuch Avon," considered the very "father" of the breed! As a researcher, she should know well that in order for a claim to be even considered, she must provide the full source. Not only in this claim, but throughout her posts, she consistently neglects this. Without giving an accurate source to independently corroborate her claim, anyone could make up a story like that and say "that is how it is" and then spread it across the internet.

She introduces the idea, based on hearsay, for a Kellogg advertisement for "gray" or "blue" Labradors (she must be unsure which since she had publicly said both). This suffers from the same unnamed source problem as above, there is no way to substantiate the claim made unless one can find the actual advertisement. Even then, such an advertisement would only serve to prove that the dilute gene is an old gene in Labradors. So, let's find it, wait, what's that? Gun Dog Magazine was not in publication until 1980! It appears that in order for WigWag's claim to be true, Gun Dog Magazine would have to have published an edition 30 years before it even existed...no wonder she is having a hard time with remembering the color in the supposed ad. When this fact was recently brought to her attention, she once again changed her story to generically read “a gun dog magazine” not “Gun Dog magazine” as she claimed for nearly a decade! But it gets even more diabolical. WigWag was directly questioned about these problems in her claim, so what did she do? She went to the best "source" any researcher would use, an internet chat forum (tongue in cheek). So, in August 2010, many years after her initial claim of Kellogg breeding Weimaraners, she posted this inquiry:

"I'm doing a bit of research and looking for anyone who may have visited Kellogg kennels a ways back (40 - 50 years ago). Did they breed Pointers and Weimeraners as well as Labradors? Thank you. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58767

Her internet handle on that forum is "acandtwows" and can be verified as WigWag by some of her earlier posts, like this one: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26275. Of course no one could corroborate her claim for her, the responses were that Kellogg only bred Labradors.

Perhaps something was missed here, but hadn't she claimed for nearly a decade to have a source for her Kellogg breeding Weims theory? Why would such a skilled researcher need something she already had? Could it be she never had it? Could it be the whole Kellogg Connection is part of a ploy to lay the blame on someone, anyone, other than the genome of breed itself for the existence of a Silver Labrador? It should be bluntly apparent that her “sources” and “facts” should be highly questioned if she cannot even do enough research to know when a publication did or did not exist; if she gets caught red-handed in an outright lie about the very premise she bases her Weimaraner corssbreeding theory on; if she adjusts her original claims once they have been disproven.

In response to the question “Where do silver Labradors come from?” she wrote:
"Well that's an interesting question and although we will never know "for sure" we do have some facts in history and can thus form a very strong hypothesis."
You have now seen some of her "facts" and her resulting "very strong hypothesis," even if you do not view Silver Labs favorably, you cannot deny her hypothesis is actually devoid of facts and is full of holes, to put it nicely.

Here are some facts that we do know for sure from actual documented breed history that form a much stronger hypothesis.
Other breeds that also originate from the island of Newfoundland, and either directly descend from, or often interbred with the St. john’s Water Dog (the Labrador's progenitor), also possess the dilution gene (the Newfoundland and the Chesapeake Bay Retriever). The majority of reported outcrosses used in development of the Labrador breed also possess the dilution gene. No, the Weimaraner was not one of them, and no, the Weimaraner does not descend from the St. John’s Water Dog. It is way more likely that the dilution gene has been part of the Labrador breed genome since its inception and development than a Weimaraner ever being bred into it.

The ongoing attempts to discredit Kellogg Kennels such as is displayed in this "open letter" are deplorable attempts by individuals who desire nothing more than to lay blame and spread their hate for Silver Labradors. These attacks are an affront to the majority of Labrador Retrievers in America, whose pedigreed heritage trace to this long-standing Kennel. If your preconceptions are such as to not believe the information posted here, feel free to do your own research. There is nothing better than for people to find truth for themselves.
 
#15 ·
Jack Vanderwyk
Who he? What axe he grind?

The cost quoted for a DNA test is JAWAG, but whatever it is it won't be cheap, and if it really is conclusive those are exactly the reasons why the breeders in the show / designer dog fraternity won't play ball. Why pay good money to prove their dogs aren't qualified for competition, or aren't genuine Labs? The implication is that it will be left to the working dog fraternities on both sides of the pond to take "unofficial" action, just as we do with health issues. I have deep sentiments of no enthusiasm for the Kennel Club, they are a millstone round the neck of the sporting breeds, and I hereby predict that in ten years time the business of "silver" Labs (in the UK at any rate) will be in just exactly the same fine mess as it is now. Having said that I find no evidence of the b******s putting in a appearance here; no one is advertising them.

Eug
 
#16 ·
Jack Vanderwyk
Who he? What axe he grind?
Actually, Eug, 'fraid you've misidentified the old boy - the name's Art Vandelay, of the import/export dodge, at your service.

You also seem to have missed the crux of Mr. Vandelay's commentary:

The cause of these concerns lies in the fact that more and more dogs are imported from the United States, with pedigree certificates from the American Kennel Club (AKC), which state that the dogs are Labrador Retrievers with the colours black, yellow or chocolate...
This goes against all reason for gamefinding - why, the gall and chutzpah of importing Labs from the United States! Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...

MG
 
#19 ·
MG, No, I got the general drift but missed Herr Art Vandelay as the author. So to repeat the question, who is he, what does he do and what's his axe? I know what his gripe is.

I know I'm only half sentient and don't get round much anyway, but I've never see or heard of a Silver lab on these shores, or of a breeder or importer. Evidence?

Eug
 
#24 ·
the problem with allowing silver dogs to be registered is that in a few years they will be throughout the gene pool . Well meaning breeders , who have NO interest in producing silvers will have silvers appearing in their lines. Maybe we should go back to culling puppies that don't meet the standard.
 
#33 ·
Oh God!!! Now you did it......even suggesting culling on this forum will get the mini van driving owners with their clickers at your door step with pitch forks ! I would hide if I were you, JMHO
 
#28 ·
I was not being serious..... BUT what happens in a few years when they start popping up in litters, because they are wrapped into the gene pool. Do you give them away, like you might a birth defect? People WILL be having surprises in a few years, because the dogs are listed as chocolate you might never know there is silver behind what you are breeding. What would you do as a breeder? THIS is why they must be stopped from being allowed to registered. In my humble opinion
 
#35 · (Edited)
My question would be that if the dd is from Weins it's not the only gene from them that was imported; thus if you DNA map the Silver they should have more than one suspect gene; a bit of testing on this and it would be solved where it came from gets rid of the whole pure bred Lab argument. Yet I haven't seen this being done which brings up the suspect of whether the gene was there originally, and not locked as believed. The E-a gene is much the same way, it was believed to be locked, however a few black and tan and brindle labs pop-up every once in awhile, (heaven forbid that gets out, or we'll have more lab colors than we know what to do with ;)) Only I've seen the testing on them, to prove purebred status; and such pups were sold Limited registration, the breeding never repeated, which is what should've happend when the Sliver coloration popped up. A proper breeder would've investigated and prevented a disqualifying trait from spreading.
 
#36 ·
What people are failing to mention about fox red is that they have the same color makeup as a white lab or a yellow lab. It is not different than having light blonde or dark blonde hair. The dogs that are silver contain a totally different gene from the regular chocolate color.
 
#37 ·
This analogy doesn't fit the point you're trying to make. In both cases, white or fox red vs. yellow and silver vs. chocolate, the genes we usually associate with the color are present (ee and bb respectively) but the expressed color is also affected by genes at other loci (other positions in the genome). IOW in this sense the different shades falling under "yellow" are equivalent to the different shades registered as "chocolate."

Amy Dahl
 
#40 ·
What people are failing to mention about fox red is that they have the same color makeup as a white lab or a yellow lab. It is not different than having light blonde or dark blonde hair. The dogs that are silver contain a totally different gene from the regular chocolate color.
Same as the silvers. On one end of the spectrum you have Pewter a dark, less expensive silvery color and On the other end you have platinum which is a light but rich savory color
Pete
 
#41 ·
A fox red will have the same color genetic makeup as a light yellow dog was my point. The silver has a different color makeup as the chocolate. What I said made complete sense.

Yellow dog Example (There are many more): BBeeDD This is a yellow with black pigment. Does not carry chocolate. This yellow could be white, yellow, or fox red. This is why fox red is different from the dillute colors. It is still within the yellow spectrum.

Chocolate dog Example: bbEEDD This is a chocolate lab. Can be dark to light chocolate in color.

Silver dog Example: bbEEdd This will be a silver lab. The difference between this color is that they have two copies of the dillute gene. This is not accepted as a color that the lab carries. This is NOT Chocolate.
 
#42 ·
Right, but you only arrive at your conclusion because you're cherry picking the information you include!

If you add the C locus, you get
light yellow B?/cc/??/ee (you really don't know what a yellow carries at the D locus)
fox red B?/CC/??/ee

Standard chocolate bb/??/D?/E? (?s represent alleles you can't detect from the appearance: CC, Cc, or cc in chocolates, also DD vs Dd and EE vs Ee)
Silver bb/??/dd/E?

Light yellow and fox red differ at the C locus (and may carry b, d, k (allowing brindling) and other genes
Standard chocolate and silver differ at the D locus (and the standard chocolate may carry d, e, k, and other unseen recessives).

In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

Amy Dahl
 
#43 ·
[QUOTEEEEEEEEE]
In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

Amy Dahl[/QUOTE]

I realize that, but people dont understand why fox red is considered okay but the dillute colors are not. The only way to explain is by using genetics. The standard allows for all of the yellow spectrum. It does not allow for the dillute gene.
 
#44 ·
In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

Amy Dahl
I realize that, but people dont understand why fox red is considered okay but the dillute colors are not. The only way to explain is by using genetics. The standard allows for all of the yellow spectrum. It does not allow for the dillute gene.
The standard says nothing about genotype. Therefore I do not find any argument about genotype persuasive. Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability. Heck the double helix was "discovered" about the same time they came out with silver labs.
 
#46 ·
A short reply to Jeff's comment on the LCOA understanding field Labs. The LRC (The Labrador Retriever Club) Board is composed of half the members of the Board having judged National Stakes. That half all have/had numerous FC/AFC and in some cases MH dogs as well. Many hunt. Quite a few of the Board members whose primary venue is conformation, also compete in and judge hunt tests. Many of the Board members have hunted for years.

At the National Amateur in 2013, ten of the competing Labs were gone over by AKC conformation judges and all passed what is called a conformation certificate test. This means they meet the breed standard. Two of those passing were father and son, and those two each had NAFC titles in front of their names. If you review the names of the members of the Board who were involved in determining the current breed standard, you would note a list of outstanding representatives who judged many Nationals and who owned and competed with Labs whose names you would love to see in your pedigrees.

Glenda
 
#47 ·
Hi Glenda
Thank you for this info. I did not realize this. Having said that, I would like to know how this father and son actually did in the conformation ring. Again, I stand corrected . However, the dogs that impress me look like Lean Mac, not Big Mac :razz::razz:
 
#49 ·
Then Sharon, why are the field labs not winning in the conformation ring? I am totally confused, I have people right here on this board saying their labs meet the standard. They, in fact do very well in the breed ring. However their dogs in know way look like my Bitch out of Esprit's Power Play (who is one fine looking animal)
 
#50 ·
A Conformation Certificate; is akin to a working certificate; it basically tell you that you have a lab to the lab standard; but it does not tell you that, your lab will win in a conformation competition. Just as a working certificate, tells you a lab has basic bird instinct; which is a far cry from preforming or winning in a competitive preformance venue.
 
#54 ·
Jeffrey, to add a bit to that: There are CH/MH dogs out there...not a ton, but some. They earned their CH under judges who will put up a moderately built dog rather than rewarding extremes. There is also a level of fault that lies with some field breeders who don't look at structure and instead breed for what will win in their venue. Competition....on both the show and field side...tends to split a breed because of the extremes that result, and both sides say that blue ribbons make their dogs look just fine. If it wins, it gets to reproduce...and the cycle goes on.
 
#284 ·
. Wish there was a like button
 
#55 ·
The difference between a $1 bill, $100 bill and a counterfeit bill isn't the paper or the ink.
It's what it represents, that gives it it's value.

A few counterfeit bills will not effect the integrity of the currency.

However, thousands, or millions of them will undermine what the currency represents.
It makes "real" no longer exist.

And that's a MAJOR problem for the entire currency.

These breeders need to be STOPPED from registering these dogs, or it will eventually DESTROY the registry.

It's not a little problem with a disqualifying fault. It's a massive and increasing cancer.

It needs to be stopped.
Ignoring it, will not make it go away.
 
#56 ·
Hi Jeff:

Some of the others have already supplied some good answers. You will see the discrepancy between the field dogs and show dogs in quite a few of the retriever/hunting breeds! The one that stays the closest to being true is the Chesapeake among the retriever breeds.

Recently, at the National Specialties, when they have judges seminars, we try to bring some field titled dogs in for the judges to see dogs that meet the standard physically, yet can do the work. This has been done for a couple of years at the GRCA National Specialty, and I know Fred Kampo (definitely) and I think Lyn Yelton as well, have used their Lab field champions for some of the conformation judges at the Lab Nat'l Specialty to view. In both Labs and Goldens, there are getting to be more and more Champions that are also master hunters.

I have field trial/hunt test dogs so know what you mean, but I have seen a couple of very nice dogs who competed in both---tho usually in the minor stakes, although not always. In a lot of cases if you took off the fat, you would discover there is a decent looking dog underneath. When Fred took his dog, the judges all thought it would measure over-size and were very surprised to see he was right in standard. He gave the appearance of being bigger due to the fact he was so fit and had leg! Grady and Trav are right in standard as well. The show judges tend to put up what they are used to seeing in the ring. Not all that many years ago, many of the sporting dog judges in conformation also hunted so knew what a good hunting dog should look like and feel like in hard working condition and how it should move. Now probably there is only a very, very small minority of show judges that hunt or have even been exposed to hunting as a child.

In the early days of both Labs & Goldens, they often went from hunting in the field, then to the show ring and from there to the field trial, often in the same weekend.

I used to show horses and was in a hunter/jumper class where they also judged the conformation. The judge was from Germany, and pointed out quite a few of the horses were overweight and said they worked their horses in Germany, and didn't eat them! Luckily, my horse was quite fit, and in talking to him later, he said how fat is often used to cover a multitude of sins---ie., sort of like a wet tee-shirt contest reveals more than does a dry one. Field dogs normally are very fit and their muscles well delineated.

Glenda
 
#57 ·
Ok, I am a Golden guy, but I want you to know you are not alone. At least you don't have to put up with Oprah and her "white" Goldens. And it is a whole different deal in conformation. My HRCH golden probably could not get a confirmation certificate even though he has seven FT HOF dogs in the first three generations of his pedigree. Why? I doubt his bite is correct.

My puppy looks like she may have some white on her hips, if she does she won't qualify.

I can accept this as I bought performance dogs, not show pieces. What burns me though is the inconsistent application of the breed standards.

The first part of the Golden standard states it is "primarily a hunting dog." It goes on to state that the coat should be neither too short or too long.

Look at the confirmation winners! Most of them look like powder puffs. So, they have all that hair which I would love to see after a day of hunting, haven't shown they can find their supper bowls and likely can't run 200 yards without a coronary. Hmmm... But they win titles as fine examples of the breed when they can't even perform the tasks for which they are bred. But a fine hunting dog can't even enter the confirmation ring because of bite or color.

I am not griping about the breed standard. If what was written was truly followed we might improve the breed. ( Certainly some exceptions to this on the lab side- short fat labs do not generally win field trials, but the may be better suited for hauling fish nets and the original tasks they were intended. Maybe a split in the breed is a good idea?)

The problem the Golden and Lab communities is having is that judges are ignoring the standard.
 
#58 · (Edited)
Renee posted
Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability.
Just a point of order M'Lud, but heritability was well understood empirically following the work of Mendel and later on Darwin; white sweet pea, pink sweet pea, Galapagos finches, all that jazz. What they didn't know or guess at was the mechanism that brought about the observable results. I think Mendel and Darwin would have had enough savvy in their days to look at a "silver" and say "Pops, that ain't a kosher Labrador, git it outta the breed pool."

Someone also made the point that the illegitimate Weim injection would have brought along a lot of characteristics other than mere colour, which is surely right. A tidy proportion of the Weims I've been involved with had jaws like rat traps; we used to say of one, "Never fails to bring in a dead bird!";)

At bottom of course those who say it's all about money are spot on. Just checking a few on-line ads I note Springadors :)rolleyes:) being offered at well over the equivalent of $500 in UK.

Eug
 
#59 ·
Renee posted Just a point of order M'Lud, but heritability was well understood empirically following the work of Mendel and later on Darwin; white sweet pea, pink sweet pea, Galapagos finches, all that jazz. What they didn't know or guess at was the mechanism that brought about the observable results. I think Mendel and Darwin would have had enough savvy in their days to look at a "silver" and say "Pops, that ain't a kosher Labrador, git it outta the breed pool."

Someone also made the point that the illegitimate Weim injection would have brought along a lot of characteristics other than mere colour, which is surely right. A tidy proportion of the Weims I've been involved with had jaws like rat traps; we used to say of one, "Never fails to bring in a dead bird!";)

At bottom of course those who say it's all about money are spot on. Just checking a few on-line ads I note Springadors :)rolleyes:) being offered at well over the equivalent of $500 in UK.

Eug
Eug, I am sure you are aware that Mendel's findings lay buried in the scientific literature until they were "rediscovered" in the 1900s by later scientists. It is clear to me when I read historical accounts of the labrador retriever that many if not most could not predict when the yellows would appear from black. Look how confused many RTFers are about it, and we all learn the principles in 8th grade here.
 
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