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Thread: Silver Labs?

  1. #41
    Member Takem_brewer's Avatar
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    A fox red will have the same color genetic makeup as a light yellow dog was my point. The silver has a different color makeup as the chocolate. What I said made complete sense.

    Yellow dog Example (There are many more): BBeeDD This is a yellow with black pigment. Does not carry chocolate. This yellow could be white, yellow, or fox red. This is why fox red is different from the dillute colors. It is still within the yellow spectrum.

    Chocolate dog Example: bbEEDD This is a chocolate lab. Can be dark to light chocolate in color.

    Silver dog Example: bbEEdd This will be a silver lab. The difference between this color is that they have two copies of the dillute gene. This is not accepted as a color that the lab carries. This is NOT Chocolate.

  2. #42
    Senior Member afdahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takem_brewer View Post
    A fox red will have the same color genetic makeup as a light yellow dog was my point. The silver has a different color makeup as the chocolate. What I said made complete sense.

    Yellow dog Example (There are many more): BBeeDD This is a yellow with black pigment. Does not carry chocolate. This yellow could be white, yellow, or fox red. This is why fox red is different from the dillute colors. It is still within the yellow spectrum.

    Chocolate dog Example: bbEEDD This is a chocolate lab. Can be dark to light chocolate in color.

    Silver dog Example: bbEEdd This will be a silver lab. The difference between this color is that they have two copies of the dillute gene. This is not accepted as a color that the lab carries. This is NOT Chocolate.
    Right, but you only arrive at your conclusion because you're cherry picking the information you include!

    If you add the C locus, you get
    light yellow B?/cc/??/ee (you really don't know what a yellow carries at the D locus)
    fox red B?/CC/??/ee

    Standard chocolate bb/??/D?/E? (?s represent alleles you can't detect from the appearance: CC, Cc, or cc in chocolates, also DD vs Dd and EE vs Ee)
    Silver bb/??/dd/E?

    Light yellow and fox red differ at the C locus (and may carry b, d, k (allowing brindling) and other genes
    Standard chocolate and silver differ at the D locus (and the standard chocolate may carry d, e, k, and other unseen recessives).

    In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

    Amy Dahl

  3. #43
    Member Takem_brewer's Avatar
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    [QUOTEEEEEEEEE]
    In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

    Amy Dahl[/QUOTE]

    I realize that, but people dont understand why fox red is considered okay but the dillute colors are not. The only way to explain is by using genetics. The standard allows for all of the yellow spectrum. It does not allow for the dillute gene.

  4. #44
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takem_brewer View Post
    In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

    Amy Dahl
    I realize that, but people dont understand why fox red is considered okay but the dillute colors are not. The only way to explain is by using genetics. The standard allows for all of the yellow spectrum. It does not allow for the dillute gene.
    The standard says nothing about genotype. Therefore I do not find any argument about genotype persuasive. Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability. Heck the double helix was "discovered" about the same time they came out with silver labs.
    Renee P

  5. #45
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    The standard says nothing about genotype. Therefore I do not find any argument about genotype persuasive. Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability. Heck the double helix was "discovered" about the same time they came out with silver labs.
    That's my issue with people quoting the lab standard all the time. In my opinion the lab standard is misguided at best, and in a worst case scenario a liability to future hunters wanting a quality hunting partner. The L C O A would do a great service to the breed, by going and watching a master test, or better yet a field trial. One quick look would be obvious to L.CO.A. reps, that there standard is way out of tune with whats needed in a days hunt.These fc , mh, are the labs that should be used to rewrite the standard.

  6. #46
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    A short reply to Jeff's comment on the LCOA understanding field Labs. The LRC (The Labrador Retriever Club) Board is composed of half the members of the Board having judged National Stakes. That half all have/had numerous FC/AFC and in some cases MH dogs as well. Many hunt. Quite a few of the Board members whose primary venue is conformation, also compete in and judge hunt tests. Many of the Board members have hunted for years.

    At the National Amateur in 2013, ten of the competing Labs were gone over by AKC conformation judges and all passed what is called a conformation certificate test. This means they meet the breed standard. Two of those passing were father and son, and those two each had NAFC titles in front of their names. If you review the names of the members of the Board who were involved in determining the current breed standard, you would note a list of outstanding representatives who judged many Nationals and who owned and competed with Labs whose names you would love to see in your pedigrees.

    Glenda

  7. #47
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda Brown View Post
    A short reply to Jeff's comment on the LCOA understanding field Labs. The LRC (The Labrador Retriever Club) Board is composed of half the members of the Board having judged National Stakes. That half all have/had numerous FC/AFC and in some cases MH dogs as well. Many hunt. Quite a few of the Board members whose primary venue is conformation, also compete in and judge hunt tests. Many of the Board members have hunted for years.

    At the National Amateur in 2013, ten of the competing Labs were gone over by AKC conformation judges and all passed what is called a conformation certificate test. This means they meet the breed standard. Two of those passing were father and son, and those two each had NAFC titles in front of their names. If you review the names of the members of the Board who were involved in determining the current breed standard, you would note a list of outstanding representatives who judged many Nationals and who owned and competed with Labs whose names you would love to see in your pedigrees.

    Glenda
    Hi Glenda
    Thank you for this info. I did not realize this. Having said that, I would like to know how this father and son actually did in the conformation ring. Again, I stand corrected . However, the dogs that impress me look like Lean Mac, not Big Mac

  8. #48
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    The Labrador breed standard, as written, definitely favors a field type dog over what is often seen in the show ring.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  9. #49
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    The Labrador breed standard, as written, definitely favors a field type dog over what is often seen in the show ring.
    Then Sharon, why are the field labs not winning in the conformation ring? I am totally confused, I have people right here on this board saying their labs meet the standard. They, in fact do very well in the breed ring. However their dogs in know way look like my Bitch out of Esprit's Power Play (who is one fine looking animal)

  10. #50
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    A Conformation Certificate; is akin to a working certificate; it basically tell you that you have a lab to the lab standard; but it does not tell you that, your lab will win in a conformation competition. Just as a working certificate, tells you a lab has basic bird instinct; which is a far cry from preforming or winning in a competitive preformance venue.
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