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Getting started in field trials

21K views 107 replies 43 participants last post by  Marvin S 
#1 ·
So a couple of the other threads on here got me thinking...just how does one get started running field trials?? I'm sure there are probably a few others that may be wondering the same thing, so why not put together a list of things a newbie needs to know before showing up at their first trial. Personally I know very little about them, so maybe some of the experienced folks can post some tips/information resources, etc. Try to keep it serious and provide legitimate information for anybody who wants to know. Personally I've went and watched 2 separate trials, one being the Canadian national amateur last year, and that day I think I was easily the youngest person there (33) I could be wrong but it seems to me it could very well be a dying sport. So how about it folks how about a little FYI/FAQ for Newbie Field Trialers.

For a starting point, let's say we already have:
* field trial quality pup
* a copy of one of the training programs (Lardy/Graham/etc)

Personally my biggest question would be:
* what should the dog be capable of handling? (Training requirements?)
 
#41 ·
read between the lines a little, when I said have a training mentor who can also guide you into judging assignments, it meant that they would be mentoring you in proper training techniques and things important to judging at the same time often by giving you responsibilities of increasing difficulty on training days. If things go reasonably well they'll have you finishing trials sooner than the average bear. If you start with a baby puppy, have a good mentor and are a good student, by the time you are breaking your dog out in Derby you will maybe apprentice that season (per latest rules) and line up your first assignments. Try to insure at your early minor stake judging assignments you are paired with a seriously good judge, preferably one who has judged a National or at least has finish and placed in numerous trials.
 
#42 · (Edited)
I can only speak from the perspective of learning to judge HT but I think you're on target with telling folks to think about and prepare to get in the chair Breck.

It made me a much better handler.

It is critical to everyone else though, that your mentors only put you in the chair when you're REALLY ready.

Just taking the AKC judge's seminar, if that's your venue will help you as a handler immensely, especially if judges are really fluent and judging the way the AKC wants it done.
 
#46 ·
In their infinite wisdom, the founding fathers of the field trial game set the total number of points needed by the pair of judges to allow that pannel to judge a Derby, the last time I looked neither need to have 8 points much less to have judged a National.

john
 
#48 · (Edited)
Old ways v. New

The underlying idea that judging assignments for the 'novice' teaches
the F.T. game is Dangerous & puts "the cart before the horse".
Experience and adequate knowledge develops from proper and timely
apprenticeship as an active club member, volunteering & working all possible
club duties, acquiring a well bred dog from recognized F.T. lines, working the
many jobs at club & AKC Licensed trials, TRAINING ONE'S OWN DOG, and ...
seeks out and benefits from the guidance of one or two respected Mentors.

Hopefully, if one's peers recognize his or her's sincerity & commitment, they
will line up early judging assignments based on "accomplishment" in the above
areas and Co- judges will be good ones intent on teaching ... right from wrong
as well as the rules ... and the student will be respectful and appreciative.

Bill Connor
 
#51 ·
The underlying idea that judging assignments for the 'novice' teaches
the F.T. game is Dangerous & puts "the cart before the horse".
Experience and adequate knowledge develops from proper and timely
apprenticeship as an active club member, volunteering & working all possible
club duties, acquiring a well bred dog from recognized F.T. lines, working the
many jobs at club & AKC Licensed trials, TRAINING ONE'S OWN DOG, and ...
seeks out and benefits from the guidance of one or two respected Mentors.

Hopefully, if one's peers recognize his or her's sincerity & commitment, they
will line up early judging assignments based on "accomplishment" in the above
areas and Co- judges will be good ones intent on teaching ... right from wrong
as well as the rules ... and the student will be respectful and appreciative.

Bill Connor
Post of the Month!!
 
#50 ·
Just because something can be done, does not mean that it should be done.
 
#52 ·
From the standard procedures for retriever field trials,
In a Derby and Qualifying Stake the experience of
the Judges selected shall be such that their combined
experience satisfies at least one of the following
standards:(a) the judging of two stakes carrying
championship points; (b) the judging of one stake
carrying championship points and the judging of three
minor stakes; or (c) judging five minor stakes.
Not that it is a good idea, but the rules require relatively little combined judging experience between two judges to judge the qualifying or the derby.
 
#57 ·
Look, my advice regarding getting out and judging early in ones career was not about "learning" necessarily. Several of you old timers should know just what I was getting at.
And john my point was a new judge stands to loose a lot getting stuck judging with those floating on the margins. I'll say again, for a serious newbie, chose carefully who you pair up with, holding out for a prev national judge or someone with oddles of judging points and or had derby dogs with lots o points. Exhaust your efforts to hook up folks like that or similar before settling for whomever.
 
#66 ·
It is very true that sitting in the chair judging field trials or hunt test teaches you a lot as a handler, that does not mean every new up and comer should be given a judging assignment. It may be good for him or her, but they might not be good judging material. As John and Ed both say, bad test and bad judging can involve both the very experienced and inexperienced, but assuming similar talent, knowledge and inherent judgment, you would have to deduct that judges only get better with experience.

edit: I just read the last two post, certainly attending a judging seminar is good for anybody.
 
#72 ·
I just read the last two post, certainly attending a judging seminar is good for anybody.
Hard to imagine that being exposed to different ideas could be bad for you.
 
#67 ·
Interesting to see that the Holiday Season did nothing to change some dispositions.

 
#71 ·
I don't think that the fact that a person trains his/her own dogs necessarily means that person will be a good judge.
I don't think that the fact that a person competes with his/her own dogs necessarily means that a person will be a good judge.
I don't think that the fact that a stake may be judged by people with the minimum number of points needed means that the stake will be poor.
I don't think that the fact that a stake may be judged by people with considerably more than the minimum number of points needed means that the stake will be good.
But, the odds are sure stacked that way.

 
#73 ·
So a couple of the other threads on here got me thinking...just how does one get started running field trials?? I'm sure there are probably a few others that may be wondering the same thing, so why not put together a list of things a newbie needs to know before showing up at their first trial. Personally I know very little about them, so maybe some of the experienced folks can post some tips/information resources, etc. Try to keep it serious and provide legitimate information for anybody who wants to know. Personally I've went and watched 2 separate trials, one being the Canadian national amateur last year, and that day I think I was easily the youngest person there (33) I could be wrong but it seems to me it could very well be a dying sport. So how about it folks how about a little FYI/FAQ for Newbie Field Trialers.

For a starting point, let's say we already have:
* field trial quality pup
* a copy of one of the training programs (Lardy/Graham/etc)

Personally my biggest question would be:
* what should the dog be capable of handling? (Training requirements?)




This was the OP

And you wonder why newbies say the hell with it??
 
#77 ·
Newf, went back to your original post. You say you attended the National Amateur so I take it you are in the western zone I also think you posted somewhere that you have run hunt test. If you live close to where the Am National was run why don't you contact that club and talk to them about coming to a training day. You can probably find information about clubs in your area on the National website. Your dog is going to need to handle all the things it handles in a hunt test at much greater distances. You saw the marks and blinds at the National, they are much like the marks and blinds you would find at a weekend field trail, the judging is just tighter. You can get a copy of the Field Trial rules from the Canadian Kennel Club.
 
#78 · (Edited)
My take Judging is about giving back, not about what one can take from it; it's not about what you can learn by judging. Sorry but it sort've gets to me when people suggest judging as a way to learn about dogs, or learn to be a better handler. A judge should already have a vast amount of knowledge, and already know how to run and read dogs. A judge should have a bunch of dog experience, and a pretty good idea of factors, landscape, how to setup marks, influences etc. They should have already been there and trained a dog in the division which they are judging. I don't particularly like the idea of judges learning these lessons, nor deciding to judge with the intention of learning (that can be done from the gallery, or in the marshals chair, or in a gun station). I want a judge who has already been there, already knows, and chooses to give back; otherwise how can I respect their evaluation of mine or any dogs.
 
#80 ·

This is a great ideal. However, the harsh reality is that there are not enough of the people you describe for the judging openings that must be filled.
 
#95 · (Edited)
Ted, with apprenticeship being the last step before actually getting an assignment, wouldn't you think that the apprenticeship as you described it, and nothing less, would be the only appropriate situation? It is a test of the apprentice's skills, at the end of the day, correct? The judges involved have to sign off on the apprentice being ready to judge at that point, as I understood it when I did my HT apprenticeship.
My vote is for something less.

Per the rules , other than safety considerations etc. between the event committee and the judges... I do not feel that there should any consideration given to the opinion of a third party with regard to the quality of the dog work when judging an AKC Field Trial.



john
 
#102 ·
My vote is for something less.

Per the rules , other than safety considerations etc. between the event committee and the judges... I do not feel that there should any consideration given to the opinion of a third party with regard to the quality of the dog work when judging an AKC Field Trial.



john
I didn't take Ted's response to say that Chris had input on placements, just that he was asked what his were and for the rational, and then the JUDGES made the decision.

Ted knows full well the rules and doesn't seem to me as a gentleman who would be in the business of breaking them.
 
#83 ·
I believe it would be most beneficial to have someone with a history as an educator develop a curriculum of study, include a reasonable apprenticeship and throw away the existing test(s).

I don't think anyone will argue the wording on the existing tests does not promote long term retention of the rules or a thorough understanding of the rule book. Every person I know who has taken the test always gripes and complains about the ridiculousness of the wording. People who re-take the test seem to complain louder and they've probably taken it 6+ times.
 
#96 ·
My take on apprenticeships. There has been a trend lately in the Midwest anyway ,for various folks serving apprenticeships with experienced judges who have never completed a all-age stake, or even got through the first series. Some of these folks now have a few Major points under their belt. There are some judges judging at the all-age level, 8 point majors, who don't even have enough minor points. Some believe that are on various committees selecting judges on how hard a worker at club events works. No reference to their ability or experience in running dogs. On the circuit there are judges in the field trial game who have never placed a dog or even finished a dog in a all-age stake. Many suggest that if you haven't trained your own dog , how can you judge, that's pure hogwash. There are many out there in the field trial world, pro trained dogs run by amateurs, who run many weekends, finish trials, place dogs and title them. I have judged with those who have owned National Field Champions, who didn't have a clue on setting up tests or looking at good dog work. On the otherside have judged with those who just try to get to the water blind to get in the last series , have JAMed or placed a few times, but, are excellent at setting up tests and know good dog work. What we are developing are a list of Performance Judges listed on the AKC site that may or may not be qualified to even judge ! I think the committees that select judges rather then judge swapping or local availability, should do some "homework" on who is selected to judge. If not this "apprenticeship pool" is not contributing to the best interest of the sport, in my opinion.
 
#98 ·
Earl, you bring up a good point that I have been thinking about since this thread turned more to judging qualifications and Ted alluded to it earlier as well. There are in fact many very experienced judges who are not as good as some who are less experienced. As well, there are many people who aren't there at the end of every trial who are very good--in fact I know a few who were very darn good at bird placement before they entered their first field trial, but just don't have the dog yet to be there at the end.

One thing I want to add, though, to folks just getting in is that, in my experience many of the judges with lots of points are not good co-judges for a newer judge (some are just not good co-judges at all). If you are going to progress in those first assignments, it is way better to have a judge who will give you input, even if they have to explain to you why they don't like your ideas, than the ones who set up the test and could not care less about your thoughts. Luckily most experienced judges will listen even if it is your first assignment, but there are those out there who will not.
 
#104 ·
While I agree that apprenticeship has merit given the time constraints and pressures of judging I consider it less than ideal and would not have much interest in participating. I think there are potentially better ways and some years ago I proposed a type of mentoring for prospective judges by a qualified all-age judge not judging the stake. There were a number on inherent problems associated with such a process including the second guess factor on the judges of record. Still I think there must be a better way although there seems to be little interest from anyone in authority.
 
#106 ·
newf,

as others have said, get involved with a good training group, join a club, work some trials(throw birds, shoot birds etc.), enter and run your dog, marshall a few stakes. do these activities in any order you want, none are prerequisites for others.

if you are forward, interested and respectful enough to listen, field trial people will go out of their way to help you.(at least until you have a dog that can beat them;-))

i rarely post anything that can be taken seriously on this forum. what i am about to post is an exception. three years ago i decided i was going to "run some trials". in that time i have made the aquaintance and friendship of many people, many are legendary in this sport. from more than a few of this sport's elite competitors i have recieved advice and counsel, trained with, been granted open access to the property of, hung out with, discussed litters and breedings, talked progress of puppies from the same litters with, discussed problems and solutions with and on and on. field trial people have been very gracious to me, those you may consider "unapproachable" because of their success have been even more gracious.

in terms of the opportunity of sport let's say i am a golfer. can i enter and be paired with mickelson........no! if i play basketball can i enter and play with lebron and wade.......no! but if my dog is running good and i think i want to go compete with ted and dr. ed and danny farmer and hugh arthur or whoever, i just load up my truck and go take a whack at it! where else can an average guy like me ever hope to compete(i didn't say be competitive) in an elite level athletic team sport with the best in the sport on any given weekend?

i may never have a great dog. i may have a great dog now? but i have fun!
 
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