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Newbie- help finding right dog.

12K views 54 replies 21 participants last post by  Migillicutty 
#1 ·
SIAP (sorry if already posted)- and it may have been answered. I have been searching and reading the forums but I am curious about how finding the right dog works in the dog world. I live in Aubrey Tx and trained reining horses professionally for several years. Competed at all our industries major events. I have seen the pitfalls of non-pros purchasing horses without the help of a competent professional. They then get attached to that horse who is not a good fit or does not have the ability to accomplish what they would like to be able to. They then have the difficult decision of being stuck with that horse or selling it. I think with dogs also being companion animals that decision would be even tougher. I get that at high levels selling and moving to the next prospect is probably common, but I would like to avoid that if possible. My wife has a hard time letting go of any animal. (Why we have three adopted dogs right now from her time volunteering at the dog rescue)

That said I am interested in getting a nice dog in the near future. I am an avid duck hunter. I have a lab I "trained" myself in college but he is retired from the field (age and arthritis he is 13). I use trained loosely as he did hunt and retrieve but knew just the very basics. Several years back I hunted with a friend who ran hunt tests and was a pretty accomplished amateur trainer. I watched his dog make a 200+ yd blind on a hard swimming cripple with him handling her and it was like the first time I saw a great reining horse. I knew right then and there that is something I'd like to experience with a dog of my own.

To the point, in the dog world do trainers help amateurs in finding and selecting a dog? Will they discuss the goals of the owner and then help them locate and identify a good started prospect like we do in the horse world for clients? I would think this would be the best way to have the best opportunity to find something that is a match and would be able to accomplish the goals of the owner. Thank you for reading and your patience if this comes off as totally naive.
 
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#2 ·
If you're serious I would simply have a chat with the vet in Lewisville and go from there.
 
#3 ·
I too come from a strong horse background, having trained and shown professionally for many years before "going to the dogs".

I can absolutely relate to the ammy who buys a totally inappropriate horse. There are plenty of people in the dog world who can help you find the right dog for you....but just as in horses, make sure your expectations are clear. Will you be training the dog or will you hire a pro? Some pros may lean toward a dog *they* like and that might not be the best fit for what you are wanting, if they will be doing the training and campaigning (just like horses). Do you plan to run hunt tests or field trials? Or are you simply looking for a really nice quality dog that you can train, hunt, and enjoy?

It's not at all unlike reiners. ;) Sometimes the ammy buys a little too much horse, and it spins right out from under them. The good thing about buying a started dog, just like buying a young horse with some saddle time, is that you can handle them and see how you get along. And just like in horses, with a puppy you never know what you've got until its grown up and has some training under its belt.
 
#4 ·
Hey, there are a lot of us ex-horseys out here! Sharon is exactly right about the similarities between choosing inappropriate horses and dogs. When I switched to dogs, should have known better. I got a Thoroughbred race horse when I would have been better off with a Shetland Pony! And if you are in fact close to the vet that Breck mentioned, I'm guessing Dr. Ed Aycock, a visit with him would be worth a great deal to you. Pros will help you out, especially if you plan on sending your pup to them for training. Better yet, since this still seems to a long range plan, join a retriever club, go to their events, meet their dogs and see what works for YOU. They will welcome you with open arms if you bring along a throwing arm.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I wouldn't say I am an ex-horsey. I am still active in riding and plan on competing again when my waiting period is up for my nonpro status.

I would like a gun dog to hunt with and also run hunt tests. This dog would also be a family dog. I am planning this out to hopefully avoid some mistakes and make good choices. Yes I plan on sending the dog to the trainer but want to be an active participant as time allows.

i agree on the started dog. You should have a better idea of what you are getting. That is why I am leaning that way. In horses picking yearlings is all breeding, conformation, movement and if they have "that look", but you never really know how the mental aspect is going to work and their mind is what really makes the great ones. Lots of them have the athletic ability, it is their mind and trainability that separates them.

The retriever club is a good idea. I will look in to that for sure.

Do dog trainers do like horse trainers and match non pros with started dogs? If I find a trainer I want to work with will they help in locating an appropriate animal for a fee or commission? I have searched the forums for names of recommended trainers. It seems their are some pretty close to me that come highly recommended.

Lastly who who is this Lewisville vet? Seems odd to just call a vet for advice on a finding a dog.

thank you for your replies thus far.
 
#6 ·
Lastly who who is this Lewisville vet? Seems odd to just call a vet for advice on a finding a dog.

thank you for your replies thus far.
This is a cut and paste from an old thread explaining who the vet is:
Ed Aycock ran his 1st AKC licensed field trial March 1971
He has judged more than 50 all-age stakes
He competed in 13 Nationals
Has competed with 7 different titled dogs, AFC I'd Rather Be Lucky, FC-AFC Honcho's Harvey Hipockets, FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit, FC-AFC Trumarc's Ziparoo, AFC Candlewood's Ms Costalot, AFC Trumarc's Welterweight, FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine
Co-Chief Marshall 1988 National Open, Co-Chief Marshall 1991 National
Amateur, Chairman National Open 1996, past President of the National
Retriever Club, Advisor to National Retriever Club and National Amateur
Retriever Club regarding AKC Canine Health Foundation, additional National jobs, 1984 National Retriever Championship Chairman of the Steward's Committee, 2004 National Retriever Championship Co-Captain of the Guns
Chairman of the North Texas Retriever Club field trial October 1974 to April 2005
 
#9 · (Edited)
I think you'd be better off getting advice from amateurs who train their own dogs and have been successful, than just relying on a pro. As stated before pros usually have a very distinct type of dog they like, they also might have a monetary aspect involved, as in they "just had a litter", of pup that isn't what you really need or want. I'm not saying there are not good pros out there that would help ya, just that there a alot of pros out there and i only know a few select good ones ;). The best way to find out what you might like in a dog is to get out and watch them perform, and or watch them train. Then you should compile a list of traits you'd like in a dog on an aspects of priority. Marking, drive tractability, looks etc. then be ready to wait until you find a breeding of everything you want. Still easier yet buy a started dog that has basics done. That way you start with a solid foundation, a dog that is ready to start hunting, you'll already know the dogs personality type, and you'll be able to grow and continue training together, which is much easier for a newbie when they start with a solid base, rather than attempting to assemble that base yourself.

Why doesn't this look like it does in the picture? Regards ;)
 
#10 ·
As far as pros matching up dogs with amateurs, it isn't much at all like horse showing. In my experience, it's a lot more straightforward without all the "behind the barn" commissions split eight ways from Sunday. It's more like "Hey, a customer of mine has this nice dog for sale, and I'd love to keep it on my truck...here's the price." Commissions are minimal at best, if any.

And Dr. Ed would be a good person to get to know, too...the resume above is nowhere near up to date. ;)
 
#12 ·
Gotcha. That helps quite a bit. I was curious about that. Have seen a lot of newbies and not so newbies burned in the horse industry by pros selling them horses they had no business buying or selling an "x" priced horse for "y" And splitting the difference with the other trainer to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. I hated it and it was one of the reasons I left the industry as a profession.
 
#13 ·
Ha ! This post hits so close to home its almost scary reading it !! Migillicuty, you wrote this post and I feel like "I" was telling you what to write !!
I have been lurking around the forum along with lots of others trying to pick up info here and there on what and what not to look for, seems you and I along with others are in the same boat. I to have been around horses all my life (still are) and essentially from what I can see the same principals apply.
I have 3 month old black male that I got from a college football player that couldnt care for him focusing on his football career, he is not registered so I do not know his lineage but he supposedly came from hunting stock. 2 months in my home I could not see the "want" and "drive" to retrieve but seemed like a smart dog. I chose to send him to a local trainer to give him the benefit of doubt and see if it was something that I was not doing right....1.5 months later he is back in my home and doesnt give a nickel about retrieving and honestly does not act like a 6 month old pup but more like a 6 year old family dog. He is obedient and a very good house dog but wishing I had spent the money invested on a pup with the background or even a started dog...I dont want to give up on this guy but I am lost for else to do along with the trainer, it has been given to me like this "not everyone is a duckhunter therefore not every lab is a duck dog/retriever".
Personally I am torn because I no longer duck hunt very much but dove hunt every chance I get and thought if I went to the expense of a well bred pup or started dog that I'd like to get into hunt test to make it fair to the dog.
Sorry I cant offer any advice other than dont make the mistakes I have made and do your research/homework on the pedigree's, talk with as many pro trainers/breeders as you can and compile the info to help you in your decision.
Im still not ready to give up on my pup but have started looking at started dogs and pedigree's incase my pup doesnt pan out.
Good luck on your endeaver and hope you find the dog that makes you happy for years to come.
 
#15 ·
I literally just did the same thing after my Brittany passed away. This will be my first lab. We're avid duck and goose hunters too. I talked to some friends who train and have had numerous labs before to find out some of the basics I needed to know first.

For me, (and I am NOT a professional trainer) I knew what I wanted. Yellow male, in the 65 lbs range. My bro-in-law has a great dog but he's pretty big and I didn't want one quite that big. I think for me that was the first step. Knowing sex, color and size. Everyone likes something different.

Knowing what I wanted out of the dog was the second thing. I wanted a good duck hunter and a good pet. I know a lot of this depends on the owner and trainer as well. We have a 6 month old son so I wanted one who's parents had good disposition and not a huge "motor". Some people call it the ON/OFF switch.

I knew a few things from working at a vet clinic in college about labs and some of their problems. Hips, elbows, eyes...but I learned about some others like EIC (exercise induced collapse) so I wanted to make sure his parents were all tested and certified healthy.

It's a tough decision for sure since it's about a 12 year (give or take) time and money investment. And you undoubtedly get emotionally attached!

For me, I went with a yellow male, who's sire was an FC AFC out of Texas, and both parents had the look I like.

Good luck! Hope it all works out!
 
#16 ·
Ask around and make sure it is a reputable person selling the dog.
Some would sell a "started" dog because he doesn't have the ability to go further. Try to befriend someone who can evaluate the dogs potential. And watch the dog work.
Lots of folks on here who can help.
 
#17 ·
You have a pretty good resource in your back yard, Angie Becker, Tioga Retrievers, Aubrey Texas.

And Dr. Ed would be happy to help you find a dog suitable for your needs.
 
#18 ·
Thanks Wayne, looks like you are pretty close to me. Any suggestions on pros and clubs from a local?

x-tennessean, glad I'm not the only one. Hang in there. Worse case you have two labs. They are great dogs whether they hunt or not.

ADB, appreciate the input. Sounds like you were on the same path as me not to long ago. I like the progression of your decision making. I am honing in on the first part, and needing more info before the second. I do think we have very similar "wants" in a dog. Hope everything goes well with your new hunting companion.

Ed, thanks for the recommendation on Angie. I have read good things on the forum and you are right she is pretty much in my backyard. Her place is about 5 minutes from me. Just doing some ground work and trying to learn a little more before I contact anyone. I don't want to waste anyones time, and well it is hunting season. Most of my off time is spent dodging the honey dos and hunting or scouting.
 
#21 ·
Here is another path you can take if you want a baby puppy.
Figure out exactly what path or paths you want to take for dog and yourself.
Then, call Mary @ www.candlewoodskennel.net
Tell her your aspiration and let her pick a puppy for you from the numerous breedings she arranges.
 
#22 ·
I have a naive question for those reading this thread. How readily can you find a good started dog? Are they plentiful? Why would someone let a dog that has potential go? I suppose there are situations where the will or ability to train, campaign and/or hunt the dog changes. But does that happen a lot? Another naive question... how started is "started"? Post transition? or running all-age but untitled...

Just curious.
 
#23 ·
I have a naive question for those reading this thread. How readily can you find a good started dog? Are they plentiful? Why would someone let a dog that has potential go? I suppose there are situations where the will or ability to train, campaign and/or hunt the dog changes. But does that happen a lot? Another naive question... how started is "started"? Post transition? or running all-age but untitled...

Just curious.
That's a good question.

Breck, thanks for the link.
 
#27 ·
Like I said, I just put a deposit on my first lab so I'm not an expert...but I have hunted a long time with many.

I have hunted with 3 started/finished dogs. A fox red male and two black males.

At the camp now we have two that a friend and family member got as pups. Choc male and Black male. And I've hunted with a hand full more that people got as pups over the years.

In my HUMBLE opinion from my limited experience: The finished dog hunts a little better. He'll hunt for anyone. Doesn't matter who has the whistle or who's throwing the hand signals. But he doesn't seem to be as fun-loving happy dog. Just business. The pup seems to have a better bond with his owner. Loves people happy all the time very animated. May have something to do with being socialized more often with all of us as a puppy.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Think about what you DON'T get when you buy a started dog. You don't get to see how a well-bred retriever evolves and learns. You don't get to see the foundation laid so that if a hole emerges, and you have back and fill... you don't really know how it happened and how to fix it. Of course, if you go with the started dog, the pro will be able to plug the holes. You will doubtless end up with a good dog. But have you learned the game with that dog?

With a started dog, you're immediately in the game. You don't have the housebreaking and puppyhood stuff to deal with. BUT...

If you can find that special pup, and you both learn together... I think it can be magic. (But I'm a hopeless romantic.)
 
#32 ·
Some of the dogs I sell as started dogs are dogs that I bred that have come back to me because their owners couldn't keep them for some reason (divorce, health, etc.) and others are dogs people have asked me to evaluate and sell. Some dogs come to me because of issues their owners think are insurmountable (vocal, line manners, etc.) and I fix the dog and then sell it. Sometimes a dog is too much dog for its owner, and sometimes the dog isn't enough dog. In the fall, I rarely have a started or trained dog for more than a few weeks.

One dog in particular sticks in my mind, a big, handsome male Chessie, with his JH title and a lot of hunting experience and a super disposition. He had plenty of potential to go further, but just hadn't had the opportunity. He was owned by a friend who was having some major health issues and hadn't been able to do much for a couple of years, and I was asked to sell him fast to help pay some of their medical bills. They wanted only $1000 for him....but the fact that he was a four year old with only a JH turned people off....the reason he hadn't titled further didn't matter. The people who did buy him got a heck of a nice dog at a really cheap price.

Realistically, the dogs I keep are dogs I've chosen for my breeding program and are useful to me when I guide, and there is a limit to the number of personal dogs I have room for. There's also a limit to the number of paid training dogs I can take, and a dog that isn't in paid training can become an income drain pretty quickly since you never recover the cost of training.
 
#33 ·
Really appreciate all the responses to the thread. Sounds like getting with a pro, along with doing some work at a local retriever club is the best starting point. That and reaching out to Dr. Ed. Looks like I am in good shape on resources very close to me which is great.

It also sounds like when it comes to started vs puppy, that like anything, there are pros and cons to both scenarios. However, if started dog is the route taken there are good dogs available that should meet my needs, as long as I am smart about the decision making process. Much like the horse industry, a dog that is not the right fit for one person or is ready to moved for various reasons could be someone elses superstar.

Is the general consensus that Angie Becker is the place to start when it comes to trainers in my area? Proximity is definitely a plus.
 
#34 ·
As we have a slightly under one year old puppy and a slightly over one year old started dog we recently purchased, there are definitely advantages to both routes. Whether it is a breeder or someone selling or advising you on a started dog, the key is to find someone knowledgeable about dogs, your wants and needs and whom you can trust. Proximity doesn't hurt at all.

As others said, there are a lot of reasons folks sell started dogs. Many don't have the ability to make it at the upper levels but would make fine hunting dogs or hunt test dogs. But heck, some very successful FT folks just have certain things they like or don't and will sell otherwise very nice dogs (but they are hard to get if you aren't dialed in, so again making connections with folks who are whom you can trust is important).

if you are asking yourself, "why would john sell a dog like this?" call me. 256-599-4996
For started dogs, this is the first question. Often it is an easy one to answer. Like other have alluded to situations change. Also sometimes folks just get a dog that it really good and it needs to be on a pro's truck to reach its full potential, but that may be out of reach financially. When the dog is in a FT pro's truck the second question is often tougher: "if the dog is so good, why would the pro not get another client to buy it instead of letting it get off the truck?" That is the one that worried me the most. Finally, I let a few pros and serious amateurs I trusted in on what I was looking for and was able to get a very nice one (so far, keeping fingers crossed :) ).

I would certainly give John a call, though. If it is the dog I am thinking of, in particular, it is a very nice one.
 
#37 ·
We are excited that you have vis*ited our site! Black Ice Retriev*ers is home to Labrador Retriev*ers that are fore*most work*ing dogs. The old adage that “a great dog would rather retrieve than eat” cer*tainly holds true for our dogs. Sec*ondly, our dogs are per*sonal hunt*ing com*pan*ions. Our per*sonal dogs are used for upland, water fowl, hunt tests, field tri*als and com*pete as pro*fes*sional tour*na*ment dogs in shoot to retrieve events. We demand the best of our dogs and offer you the same.

By reading all of the smack on your ads I think you know how to buy...and sell too!
 
#36 ·
Please do not use this thread to advertise your started dog for sale. The Classified forum for Started Dogs has many listings.

To the OP:

Word of caution/speaking from personal experience:

Make sure you have the dog vetted prior to purchase; check to see what the health clearances are on the parents (at least)

Get something in writing regarding what options you have if a health problem arises shortly after purchasing the dog. Some health problems can be withheld and not apparent just by seeing the dog work a time or two.

Just like buying a pup....do your homework before purchasing :)
 
#38 ·
Thank you, very good advise, appreciated!
 
#44 ·
Ice Ice Baby. If I ever get a site I'm gonna name it Vanilla Ice. Paul you need to bow down to Backwater it is obvious your experience is clearly lacking. Hell you prolly don't even measure up to some of the judges hanging out around here. Have you ever judged a test or ran a dog above a JH? LOL Perhaps some people should do a little more due diligence or should I say accurate due diligence before embarrassing themselves by their lack of knowledge.
 
#45 ·
i would like to offer an expression of apology to the moderators. the title of the thread was "help finding the right dog". since i had the right dog, i was trying to "help" not advertise.;-)
 
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