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Thread: Rowdy (by Pirate) Blind under Poison Bird arc and 290 Mark

  1. #21
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Some thoughts on this subject. Yes, Lardy does the switch side thing on PB. As others have said, just a means of cuing the dog.
    But...there are almost always exceptions to most anything.

    So, It can depend on the nature of the PB, and depend on the individual dog.
    Sorry Wayne, did not watch your video. But, often, under the arc, gives you little room. Depending on the throw.
    So, how you approach it may vary.

    One dog, you may do very little. Maybe even put your hand down and just send. If that dog is normally not too high, and reliable about casting off a mark.
    If you make a big deal with this type dog, often you will get a bad initial line, probably behind the gun. Then you will likely chop up the blind. No good in FTs, mostly. And, that type dog, may be reluctant to go back in, and pick up the mark.

    Another dog, you may just do a soft, no bird, dead, re-position a bit, and then send. No switching sides.

    And then there are the dogs, you might want to make a big deal about it, on the line. So, that may be a big, NO BIRD, HEEL, switch sides. That dog needs much "stronger" communication. You need to get them in your world, immediately. Or...they will be driving the car, and hot footing it for the PB.. This type dog generally will be quite willing to go back in, and pick up the PB, after the blind (ha)

    So obviously, I don't know what Lardy does every day, with every dog. But, my guess, he would say...it depends, too.

    Also, it is really not that important, what method you use. Many fine handlers do not switch sides. What is important...Know your dog, know the strengths/weaknesses of that dog...and use effective means to communicate to that dog.
    (Sorry to be so long. )
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Wayne

    I do not switch sides. There are many ways to skin a cat, so to some extent to each his own.

    However, if I were two sided, I would have concerns about having the dog switch sides as a cue on a poison bird.

    Why?

    1. In the Open, the poison bird is often very tight to the line for the blind. See the 8th series of the 2013 National Open.

    2. Therefore, I want the dog to line very close to the bird. If the dog is lined up for the bird, its position is already close to ideal for the blind. So, I don't want to disturb the dog's alignment or focus.

    3. I think it is easier to get that tight line, by keeping the dog's head focused on the poison bird, and cueing by making the dog heel backwards a tiny fraction.

    The command sequence "No. Heel." That tells the dog that we are not picking up the bird.
    I would then have the dog settle in, say "Dead Bird" , put my hand in and send without little to no fussing.
    The more you fuss, the less likely you are to get the tight line to the bird that you need.
    The well trained dog will - over time - understand that when you don't try to move its feet side to side, but simply have it heel backwards slightly, that you want it to run tight to the bird and not pick it up.

    4. If you have to pick up the bird, when the dog returns with the blind, you line the dog up for the bird, say "Mark" and send the dog. The cue "Mark" tells the dog that we are going to get the bird.

    P.S. If you are going to get the bird, see the 3/4 series of the 2013 National Amateur, as part of an interrupted set of marks, let the dog watch the bird for a long time, before you pull the dog off to run the blind. Take your time and focus on the task at hand.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    ML, I'm getting to the age where I have trouble stepping over a broom stick much less a dog. LOL!
    But I would like to see that technique. Can you video it and post here ?
    Wayne I will try!!!
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  4. #24
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    three go down, pick up the blind, one more goes down, pick up the marks. Just not sure I want the dog moving around on the mat that much in that situation. Not to mention, what if your cue for this situation is healing to the opposite side of you. Then, that opposite side gives you a worse line to the blind or, defies a line to water?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lucky Number Seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Wayne

    I do not switch sides. There are many ways to skin a cat, so to some extent to each his own.

    However, if I were two sided, I would have concerns about having the dog switch sides as a cue on a poison bird.

    Why?

    1. In the Open, the poison bird is often very tight to the line for the blind. See the 8th series of the 2013 National Open.

    2. Therefore, I want the dog to line very close to the bird. If the dog is lined up for the bird, its position is already close to ideal for the blind. So, I don't want to disturb the dog's alignment or focus.

    3. I think it is easier to get that tight line, by keeping the dog's head focused on the poison bird, and cueing by making the dog heel backwards a tiny fraction.

    The command sequence "No. Heel." That tells the dog that we are not picking up the bird.
    I would then have the dog settle in, say "Dead Bird" , put my hand in and send without little to no fussing.
    The more you fuss, the less likely you are to get the tight line to the bird that you need.
    The well trained dog will - over time - understand that when you don't try to move its feet side to side, but simply have it heel backwards slightly, that you want it to run tight to the bird and not pick it up.

    4. If you have to pick up the bird, when the dog returns with the blind, you line the dog up for the bird, say "Mark" and send the dog. The cue "Mark" tells the dog that we are going to get the bird.

    P.S. If you are going to get the bird, see the 3/4 series of the 2013 National Amateur, as part of an interrupted set of marks, let the dog watch the bird for a long time, before you pull the dog off to run the blind. Take your time and focus on the task at hand.
    Great post

  6. #26
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Switching sides on a PB is just another tool in the tool box.
    Some dogs, some blinds, you may choose to use it. Other blinds, other dogs..you may not.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cakaiser View Post
    Switching sides on a PB is just another tool in the tool box.
    Some dogs, some blinds, you may choose to use it. Other blinds, other dogs..you may not.
    That line was made famous here...."it depends"

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Wayne

    I do not switch sides. There are many ways to skin a cat, so to some extent to each his own.

    However, if I were two sided, I would have concerns about having the dog switch sides as a cue on a poison bird.

    Why?

    1. In the Open, the poison bird is often very tight to the line for the blind. See the 8th series of the 2013 National Open.

    2. Therefore, I want the dog to line very close to the bird. If the dog is lined up for the bird, its position is already close to ideal for the blind. So, I don't want to disturb the dog's alignment or focus.

    3. I think it is easier to get that tight line, by keeping the dog's head focused on the poison bird, and cueing by making the dog heel backwards a tiny fraction.

    The command sequence "No. Heel." That tells the dog that we are not picking up the bird.
    I would then have the dog settle in, say "Dead Bird" , put my hand in and send without little to no fussing.
    The more you fuss, the less likely you are to get the tight line to the bird that you need.
    The well trained dog will - over time - understand that when you don't try to move its feet side to side, but simply have it heel backwards slightly, that you want it to run tight to the bird and not pick it up.

    4. If you have to pick up the bird, when the dog returns with the blind, you line the dog up for the bird, say "Mark" and send the dog. The cue "Mark" tells the dog that we are going to get the bird.

    P.S. If you are going to get the bird, see the 3/4 series of the 2013 National Amateur, as part of an interrupted set of marks, let the dog watch the bird for a long time, before you pull the dog off to run the blind. Take your time and focus on the task at hand.
    with all due respect, I can and other trainers can accomplish this with using two sided heeling appropriately. The real question is, can the handler?

    /Paul
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    three go down, pick up the blind, one more goes down, pick up the marks. Just not sure I want the dog moving around on the mat that much in that situation. Not to mention, what if your cue for this situation is healing to the opposite side of you. Then, that opposite side gives you a worse line to the blind or, defies a line to water?
    You need to think through the scenario again. The dog has to be steady watching 3 birds go down. Doesn't matter which side. You then move him to other side, run the blind. The line to the blind is the same regardless of side. Coming back, he again has to be steady for 4th bird. This scenario does not prove your point, unless your dog is unsteady which of course means you have a bigger problem

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    You need to think through the scenario again. The dog has to be steady watching 3 birds go down. Doesn't matter which side. You then move him to other side, run the blind. The line to the blind is the same regardless of side. Coming back, he again has to be steady for 4th bird. This scenario does not prove your point, unless your dog is unsteady which of course means you have a bigger problem

    /Paul
    I was not making any point against it other than I don't see the benefit of using healing on a different side simply for the sake of a "Cue". Why not use the cue, "no bird, heal. Dead bird, BACK" rather than repositioning as a cue?

    The dog can understand either "cue" if trained to do so just as easily. Just seems that changing sides, if not beneficial for the line to the blind is much more disruptive to the flow of marking and running the test. Unless however, there is a clear and definitive advantage to changing sides of the heal to greatly improve the line to the blind.

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