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Rowdy (by Pirate) Blind under Poison Bird arc and 290 Mark

9K views 48 replies 17 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 · (Edited)
This is Rowdy's third lesson with blinds and poison birds. The first was about 11/7/13 with Bumper Boys. Second was on 12/31/13 with ducks. So I am following Lardys's and taking it slow with a couple weeks between sessions. The first whistle was probably not necessary but I had him lined up a bit too much to the right and I didn't want him to back side the gun station. This is a known blind that we have run before.
Following the Lardy technique to say "mark" before he retrieves poison bird and to let him know its now ok to retrieve it. But I messed up and said it after I had my hand down. Notice the head fake but he knew it was not his name. Good job Rowdy. Bad job Wayne.

There was a strong cross wind right to left. Blind is 150 yds, gun station is 60 yds.

http://s868.photobucket.com/user/waynenutt/media/318398758_zps3821638e.mp4.html


This is a 290 yd mark. It is run up hill. There are several small levees in route and the mark is on top of a flat mesa kind of area. Notice there are two pops. I got this tip from Kim. See indicated that it helps because the launch from the winger is so quick after the pop. So I put two wingers out. The first one has just a popper. The second pop is when the duck is launched. It is a mallard hen that has been breasted and duct taped back together. I tried to hold it up so it could be seen but the back lighting was not good.

I tried to watch Rowdy and take a quick peek up but messed that up as I looked up on the first shot. Rowdy ran a little wide but hooked back into the bird. There was a strong tail wind.

http://s868.photobucket.com/user/waynenutt/media/1-13-2014/320314497_zps83bfe003.mp4.html

With all the cold weather I had to buy a new handlers parka that would fit over my warm clothing. It is a snow goose camo parka from Cabela's.

Any constructive comments are welcome.
 
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#4 ·
Paul and Seven, Switching sides is just part of the Lardy process that I briefly outlined in my OP:
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...birds&highlight=Rowdy+(by+Pirate)+poison+bird

In Lardy's article Guidelines for Poison Birds he says,"Use consistent cues to identify the poison bird situation. Before I signal for the poison bird to be thrown, I always firmly say, "No Bird". Then after the poison bird is thrown, I say "No... dead bird". I then have the dog back up from the heeling position to reestablish a new position to be sent for the poison bird. With two-sided dogs, I may even have them switch the side they are heeling on as I direct them to sit down for the blind retrieve. Though this may mean nothing to your dog the first few times you do this, he will eventually understand the routine."

So in my opinion it is just establishing a routine and becomes another "cue".

I think there is a typo in the fourth sentence I quoted. Maybe someone with the newer RJ articles Vol 1 can see if it has changed.

Hope this helps.
 
#5 ·
Wayne, I agree and go through the same routine, providing the dog is two sided...obviously! Nice job you and Rowdy, doing a very nice job with him! Thanks for posting, as always!!!!

Chris
 
#6 ·
I am one sided and do que the dog with "leave it".Some dogs interpret "no" meaning never get the bird. Sometimes they have to pick it up as a mark after the blind and keeps from them having problems with that.Wayne appreciate the videos.

Jeff
 
#8 ·
I can understand the reasoning for the cue although, when first teaching the dogs leave it birds I might worry it would put too much emphasis long term that you must reposition the dog via the cue prior to running past a poison bird during the teaching phases. You won't always nor, want to reposition the dog prior to running a blind past a leave it bird?
 
#9 ·
You won't always nor, want to reposition the dog prior to running a blind past a leave it bird?
No, of course you are right. I probably always do it in training and almost always at a trial, but I might not. Sort of like putting the dog in the side to which the last bird down is thrown or picking them up with secondary selection. That is how we roll, until we don't roll that way. I try to think about where I want the dog for the PB blind and set it on the opposite side for the mark.

A lot depends on the dog, as well. I have one that doesn't do well with lots of lining before sending on a blind anyway. He is sort of a worrier so I don't try to get him perfect as it is usually better to get him good enough and live with the result than tinker too much. Depending on what is going on, I may leave him or just point him at the PB thrower and move him away to the blind.
 
#12 ·
Paul, I am glad to see you participating in the discussion. I don't know the answer to your question. Since you ended the last sentence with a "?". In reading Lardy's article it appears he always repositions the dog even if only a one sided dog.
Lardy doesn't particpate here but maybe Dennis will jump in and give us his thoughts.

I miss Howard!
 
#13 ·
I have two sided dogs and on poison birds will re-heel them to the other side to help communicate this is a blind. I'm not sure how a communication method can be considered a crutch. There are times when doing big triples or quads or marks with blinds that would make re-heeling to the other side more confusing for the dog so there is a lot to consider before trying it. Only thing in that drill I would have done differently is not use the verbal on the first cast.

/Paul
 
#14 ·
Great job Wayne. Thanks for posting. I have my dog move to the other side as you did. I cue "no leave it" and heel him to the other side. I like doing that as it is clear what I want him to do. There is no confusion and when he comes in he knows he still has to pick up the mark. At Pat Burn's seminar he said it was much neater if you stepped over the dog to change sides. We are starting to get the hang of stepping over but sometimes just change sides the old way.
 
#15 ·
Ok, next video shackled pidgeon out of the winger run the same known blind. Don't reposition the dog.
 
#18 · (Edited)
ML, I'm getting to the age where I have trouble stepping over a broom stick much less a dog. LOL!
But I would like to see that technique. Can you video it and post here ?
 
#19 ·
I'm guessing around or "over" to the other side. Seen folks who do this on honor at a HT. Different reason obviously. From a dogs standpoint I wonder how the two might correlate?
 
#21 ·
Some thoughts on this subject. Yes, Lardy does the switch side thing on PB. As others have said, just a means of cuing the dog.
But...there are almost always exceptions to most anything.

So, It can depend on the nature of the PB, and depend on the individual dog.
Sorry Wayne, did not watch your video. But, often, under the arc, gives you little room. Depending on the throw.
So, how you approach it may vary.

One dog, you may do very little. Maybe even put your hand down and just send. If that dog is normally not too high, and reliable about casting off a mark.
If you make a big deal with this type dog, often you will get a bad initial line, probably behind the gun. Then you will likely chop up the blind. No good in FTs, mostly. And, that type dog, may be reluctant to go back in, and pick up the mark.

Another dog, you may just do a soft, no bird, dead, re-position a bit, and then send. No switching sides.

And then there are the dogs, you might want to make a big deal about it, on the line. So, that may be a big, NO BIRD, HEEL, switch sides. That dog needs much "stronger" communication. You need to get them in your world, immediately. Or...they will be driving the car, and hot footing it for the PB.. This type dog generally will be quite willing to go back in, and pick up the PB, after the blind (ha)

So obviously, I don't know what Lardy does every day, with every dog. But, my guess, he would say...it depends, too.

Also, it is really not that important, what method you use. Many fine handlers do not switch sides. What is important...Know your dog, know the strengths/weaknesses of that dog...and use effective means to communicate to that dog.
(Sorry to be so long. )
 
#22 ·
Wayne

I do not switch sides. There are many ways to skin a cat, so to some extent to each his own.

However, if I were two sided, I would have concerns about having the dog switch sides as a cue on a poison bird.

Why?

1. In the Open, the poison bird is often very tight to the line for the blind. See the 8th series of the 2013 National Open.

2. Therefore, I want the dog to line very close to the bird. If the dog is lined up for the bird, its position is already close to ideal for the blind. So, I don't want to disturb the dog's alignment or focus.

3. I think it is easier to get that tight line, by keeping the dog's head focused on the poison bird, and cueing by making the dog heel backwards a tiny fraction.

The command sequence "No. Heel." That tells the dog that we are not picking up the bird.
I would then have the dog settle in, say "Dead Bird" , put my hand in and send without little to no fussing.
The more you fuss, the less likely you are to get the tight line to the bird that you need.
The well trained dog will - over time - understand that when you don't try to move its feet side to side, but simply have it heel backwards slightly, that you want it to run tight to the bird and not pick it up.

4. If you have to pick up the bird, when the dog returns with the blind, you line the dog up for the bird, say "Mark" and send the dog. The cue "Mark" tells the dog that we are going to get the bird.

P.S. If you are going to get the bird, see the 3/4 series of the 2013 National Amateur, as part of an interrupted set of marks, let the dog watch the bird for a long time, before you pull the dog off to run the blind. Take your time and focus on the task at hand.
 
#24 ·
three go down, pick up the blind, one more goes down, pick up the marks. Just not sure I want the dog moving around on the mat that much in that situation. Not to mention, what if your cue for this situation is healing to the opposite side of you. Then, that opposite side gives you a worse line to the blind or, defies a line to water?
 
#29 ·
three go down, pick up the blind, one more goes down, pick up the marks. Just not sure I want the dog moving around on the mat that much in that situation. Not to mention, what if your cue for this situation is healing to the opposite side of you. Then, that opposite side gives you a worse line to the blind or, defies a line to water?
You need to think through the scenario again. The dog has to be steady watching 3 birds go down. Doesn't matter which side. You then move him to other side, run the blind. The line to the blind is the same regardless of side. Coming back, he again has to be steady for 4th bird. This scenario does not prove your point, unless your dog is unsteady which of course means you have a bigger problem

/Paul
 
#27 ·
That line was made famous here...."it depends"
 
#31 ·
Thanks everyone for the comments and discussion. PB is not something I have seen in HRC. The only time I encountered was no-ing off a diversion to run the blind. So this is relatively new to me.
Thanks again.
 
#33 ·
I want to try FT. Rowdy is doing great at akc master level distances but struggling with ft distances. While my training ground is 150 acres, the way the pastures are divided I only have a few places where I can stretch him out to ft distances.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Hi Wayne - Thanks again for sharing your videos, the poison bird technique(s) has brought out some very interesting discussion.

In your initial post I believe you mentioned this was your 3rd time running a poison bird and that you had previously taught that blind. I thought you and Rowdy did very well, especially for only his 3rd time. It's hard to tell from the video how much you communicated to Rowdy the difference between the mark and the blind because we can't hear that. I believe, especially early on, that it's very important to make a big deal that the mark is a mark. Rowdy obviously knew it was there as soon as he came back from the blind, but that's still an opportunity for you to really reinforce the difference between a mark and a blind. Also, I'm not sure that I would be starting out with under the arc for poison birds. Have you already been doing poison birds outside the arc?

You mentioned Howard in an early post too. I spoke with him about this at length and I drove down one wknd this past fall where we went over it. If you search 'Woody Thurman' you will see where he liked to teach the poison bird concept utilizing what he called a 6 send drill. You can do this drill with a launcher and teach the concept but I think you will get more value out of it if you can have a person throwing. All dogs are different, some may not care if there's a person or a machine out there throwing the mark - some will distinguish more between the two and be more comfortable with a launcher. My point is, even if you take Rowdy out and teach it well with a launcher, don't be surprised if he's not as comfortable when it's a person and a dead bird, or obviously a flyer. Howard also was a big proponent of KRD's and you can read about them on here too.

When you were running Rowdy in that poison bird video, did you see how easy it was to get that left back when you were worried about back siding the gun? As Paul C mentioned, you may not have needed a verbal there. I would think you could have gotten him even closer to the gun before you stopped him and then still gotten him under the arc. You had the mark there as well as a strong wind to push him to the left. So if anything, I may have waited a bit longer before stopping him and almost trying to get him to stop on top of the stickman. The good news is Rowdy appeared very comfortable being near that gun and obviously took the cast back. After he was past the stickman you may have missed a cast refusal as you finished him. You gave him that angle back twice and he didn't budge on the first one. But that's something I would pay close attention to in the future.

I am one sided only with my dog and it's hard enough for me to learn to run from one side so can't really comment on the 2 sided technique. Obviously, when done properly and likely consistently - it works. This thread has brought out some valuable thoughts on it.

As for you and your measely 150 acres - all I can say is I'm envious! I hope you and Rowdy start to enter some Q's this spring and go from there. In the Q's that I've ran, we haven't seen poison birds. What's common is to see a blind just near the flyer station.

Best from Alaska - Russ

p.s. - in an earlier thread with a video, I had commented that you didn't cue your marks with a hand and I wasn't sure why. If you continue in the FT world - I think you may want to rethink that. Although, in this particular scenario with a poison bird under the arc, I'm not sure if you would want to use your hand to cue that mark. Perhaps others have thoughts on that. But in general, I think you would want to get in the habit of using your hand to cue marks.

 
#42 · (Edited)
Russ, I gave Rowdy all the Lardy prescribed cues at the line. As mentioned you just can't hear them. I started poison bird blinds outside the area of the fall. My first video on this showed me doing this with bumper boys. My next session I did outside with ducks. Then moved under the arc.
I will look for Howard's drill you mentioned. Sometimes I have weekend training partners. I am following Lardy as he says to take a whole season to learn poison bird blinds. Otherwise it may create a bugging issue.
You can't see it but he looked away from me for a second when I gave him the second cast and that is why I double pumped.
Thanks for your comments.
 
#45 ·
Thanks ML. I would surely trip over my dog as clumsy as I have become.
 
#47 ·
Mary Lynn
Don't be doing that steping over the dog crap.
It's s cop out for those who cannot heel/here their dog left or right through all points of the compass.
Do same setup as in your bid but, stand still, say no here as you pivot to face blind. Tap your leg if necessary. If dog peaks a look at poison, no here, until dog locks in on blind. The send.
 
#48 ·
PS, flipping a dog can work but doing so takes dogs eyes off the picture and you need to refocus him. Much easier to keep dog on one side. You can then reheel dog backward, eyes still looking out, as a similar que you're running a pbb.
 
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