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Thread: Rowdy (by Pirate) Blind under Poison Bird arc and 290 Mark

  1. #31
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the comments and discussion. PB is not something I have seen in HRC. The only time I encountered was no-ing off a diversion to run the blind. So this is relatively new to me.
    Thanks again.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
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    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Lucky Number Seven's Avatar
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    Maybe you have posted this elsewhere at some point but is your plan to run trials with him? Just curious as looking at your signature it looks like you obviously been in the hunt test game for a while.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    I want to try FT. Rowdy is doing great at akc master level distances but struggling with ft distances. While my training ground is 150 acres, the way the pastures are divided I only have a few places where I can stretch him out to ft distances.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    You need to think through the scenario again. The dog has to be steady watching 3 birds go down. Doesn't matter which side. You then move him to other side, run the blind.
    /Paul
    You may do this in training but you will not see it in a trial as the rules state that
    Diversion Bird:



    A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/ are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot.

    Mark

    Last edited by Mark; 01-15-2014 at 01:31 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    You may do this in training but you will not see it in a trial as the rules state that
    Diversion Bird:



    A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/ are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot.

    Mark

    Delayed quad?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Charles C.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Delayed quad?
    Delayed marks wouldn't be relevant to poison birds or "diversions." I suppose it's semantics, but you can't shoot more than 2 birds before requiring the dog to pull off and run a blind.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles C. View Post
    Delayed marks wouldn't be relevant to poison birds or "diversions." I suppose it's semantics, but you can't shoot more than 2 birds before requiring the dog to pull off and run a blind.

    just got texted that from a training partner... lol

  8. #38
    Junior Member russhardy's Avatar
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    Hi Wayne - Thanks again for sharing your videos, the poison bird technique(s) has brought out some very interesting discussion.

    In your initial post I believe you mentioned this was your 3rd time running a poison bird and that you had previously taught that blind. I thought you and Rowdy did very well, especially for only his 3rd time. It's hard to tell from the video how much you communicated to Rowdy the difference between the mark and the blind because we can't hear that. I believe, especially early on, that it's very important to make a big deal that the mark is a mark. Rowdy obviously knew it was there as soon as he came back from the blind, but that's still an opportunity for you to really reinforce the difference between a mark and a blind. Also, I'm not sure that I would be starting out with under the arc for poison birds. Have you already been doing poison birds outside the arc?

    You mentioned Howard in an early post too. I spoke with him about this at length and I drove down one wknd this past fall where we went over it. If you search 'Woody Thurman' you will see where he liked to teach the poison bird concept utilizing what he called a 6 send drill. You can do this drill with a launcher and teach the concept but I think you will get more value out of it if you can have a person throwing. All dogs are different, some may not care if there's a person or a machine out there throwing the mark - some will distinguish more between the two and be more comfortable with a launcher. My point is, even if you take Rowdy out and teach it well with a launcher, don't be surprised if he's not as comfortable when it's a person and a dead bird, or obviously a flyer. Howard also was a big proponent of KRD's and you can read about them on here too.

    When you were running Rowdy in that poison bird video, did you see how easy it was to get that left back when you were worried about back siding the gun? As Paul C mentioned, you may not have needed a verbal there. I would think you could have gotten him even closer to the gun before you stopped him and then still gotten him under the arc. You had the mark there as well as a strong wind to push him to the left. So if anything, I may have waited a bit longer before stopping him and almost trying to get him to stop on top of the stickman. The good news is Rowdy appeared very comfortable being near that gun and obviously took the cast back. After he was past the stickman you may have missed a cast refusal as you finished him. You gave him that angle back twice and he didn't budge on the first one. But that's something I would pay close attention to in the future.

    I am one sided only with my dog and it's hard enough for me to learn to run from one side so can't really comment on the 2 sided technique. Obviously, when done properly and likely consistently - it works. This thread has brought out some valuable thoughts on it.

    As for you and your measely 150 acres - all I can say is I'm envious! I hope you and Rowdy start to enter some Q's this spring and go from there. In the Q's that I've ran, we haven't seen poison birds. What's common is to see a blind just near the flyer station.

    Best from Alaska - Russ

    p.s. - in an earlier thread with a video, I had commented that you didn't cue your marks with a hand and I wasn't sure why. If you continue in the FT world - I think you may want to rethink that. Although, in this particular scenario with a poison bird under the arc, I'm not sure if you would want to use your hand to cue that mark. Perhaps others have thoughts on that. But in general, I think you would want to get in the habit of using your hand to cue marks.

    Last edited by russhardy; 01-15-2014 at 02:19 PM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    You may do this in training but you will not see it in a trial as the rules state that
    Diversion Bird:



    A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/ are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot.

    Mark

    I fail to see how that is pertinent to the discussion. The 3 birds going down are marks not diversion birds. Diversion birds are typically thrown when the dog is coming back from a mark/blind. Poison birds are typically thrown from the line.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  10. #40
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    I fail to see how that is pertinent to the discussion. The 3 birds going down are marks not diversion birds. Diversion birds are typically thrown when the dog is coming back from a mark/blind. Poison birds are typically thrown from the line.

    /Paul
    This may bot be pertanent either, but some venues Judges are allowed to designate order of pick up. So, it may be required to "no" off a go bird, and pick up the designated bird first.

    some dogs get use to this calamity at the line, and really do fine just keeping them in or on the originating side of the handler.

    I am of the camp that believes the less movement by the dog, the better
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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