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Thread: How do you handle this situation (teaching "back" casting to pile)

  1. #21
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Or a lawn mower. Or just find a city park, or baseball diamond; somewhere that you have unobstructed sight of your white bumpers. But when teaching those basic casts keep the distance short.



    The proportions in the diagram are correct. The distances are in "feet", not "yards". And the dog should be on a rope at all times while casts are being taught.

    Evan



    Evan, I'm not trying to be a smart a$$# here but for the life of me I cannot understand why a trainer as accomplished as yourself would need a rope at this stage of the game.
    Not saying I never use a rope or check cord but it is rarely and if I do it is very brief but I will say I have never used one at this stage of the game. My problem is that I am very inept at using a rope that it does more harm than good. Also I just don't see the need for one.

  2. #22
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    Evan, I'm not trying to be a smart a$$# here but for the life of me I cannot understand why a trainer as accomplished as yourself would need a rope at this stage of the game.
    Not saying I never use a rope or check cord but it is rarely and if I do it is very brief but I will say I have never used one at this stage of the game. My problem is that I am very inept at using a rope that it does more harm than good. Also I just don't see the need for one.
    There's a great deal of difference between what I recommend to a client with little to no training experience and what I would do myself in a given situation Steve.

    I find it necessary to simplify and stay SAFE, meaning I might take a little risk with something and back off quickly if it doesn't work... I don't recommend those strategies to clients because they don't know when to stop!
    Darrin Greene

  3. #23
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    There's a great deal of difference between what I recommend to a client with little to no training experience and what I would do myself in a given situation Steve.

    I find it necessary to simplify and stay SAFE, meaning I might take a little risk with something and back off quickly if it doesn't work... I don't recommend those strategies to clients because they don't know when to stop!

    Good point but if you don't risk a little or push the limit how much are you really learning? If I had this way of thinking when training my own puppies I would'nt get far. I push them to see what they can do and I don't see teaching people much different.
    A newbie getting advice form a guy like Evan that says Always have the dog on a rope at this point may not think outside the box and progress as fast. I want to know why at 7 or 8 months old, which is when I would start 3 handed casting after FF, would you need the dog to be on a rope?
    I think new people are handicapped by blindly following a "system" without thinking for them selves. I understand being completely new you need some sort of guidelines. Sooo much stuff gets passed over and not discussed in internet dog training. My message to newbies is follow a program to learn the progression of teaching tasks, Lardy flow chart, but do not be afraid to use your own knoggin. If you just go out and follow a program without thinking about it you don't learn to "READ THE DOG" which really is what dog training is all about and this is pretty much impossible to explain or teach via the internet. I've seen many new people blindly following a program without thinking about it and they are only handicapping themselves. I wont tell someone not to do something because I don't think they can handle it. I'd rather tell them you can do this but watch out for this or that. "Go west young man", "Go boldly where no man has ever gone". What if Lewis and Clark were afraid to explore? John Glenn? Capt. Kirk?????
    Instead of staying "SAFE" why not teach them to "take a little risk and to back off quickly when something doesn't work". I don't believe withholding knowledge for your own good is productive.
    Last edited by Steve Shaver; 01-17-2014 at 10:46 AM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    The difference, Steve, is that I'm not training people who are going to be entering a sport with multiple dogs, where they need to learn those intricate methods of training. They don't need to know the art so much as they do a good, safe set of mechanics to get the job done, with as little risk to the dog as possible.

    I think the same applies to people who are really reading and following a program and may be training one of their first few dogs.

    If you think about it, the average hunter is going to have maybe a dog every 7 or 8 years to train. That's a total of 5 or so in a lifetime. Pays to keep it simple when the skills aren't practiced that much.

    Just my opinion.

    As for holding back knowledge for my own good, that's not why I do it. I do it, so as not to confuse the client.

    I study something related to dog training every single day. It may be a blog, or another video I rented or something. I then have plenty of subjects with which to experiment.

    People who own one dog don't work toward that depth of knowledge and they have 1 dog to train.

    I find the process works a whole lot better if it's streamlined and information is shared on a need to know basis. IT works better for the client and honestly, allows me to get a lesson done in a cost effective manner.

    As that relates to rope, I think a newer trainer benefits from it more than an old hat and in that vein, it makes sense for a program like Evan's to call for it, even if it's not something he uses himself any longer.

    Like I said, just me.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 01-17-2014 at 11:09 AM.
    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    Evan, I'm not trying to be a smart a$$# here but for the life of me I cannot understand why a trainer as accomplished as yourself would need a rope at this stage of the game.
    Not saying I never use a rope or check cord but it is rarely and if I do it is very brief but I will say I have never used one at this stage of the game. My problem is that I am very inept at using a rope that it does more harm than good. Also I just don't see the need for one.
    Steve,

    I wish I were allowed to post a brief video of how I run both 3-handed casting and Mini-T. The rope is very easy to use here, and provides a very minimal pressure correction for missed casts, and whistle stops in the early going. It's very simple, and a majority of dogs pick up on these tasks readily without yelling at them needlessly for those common errors. If you'll email me I can give you a link to the video clip.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

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  6. #26
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    Good point but if you don't risk a little or push the limit how much are you really learning? If I had this way of thinking when training my own puppies I would'nt get far. I push them to see what they can do and I don't see teaching people much different.
    A newbie getting advice form a guy like Evan that says Always have the dog on a rope at this point may not think outside the box and progress as fast. I want to know why at 7 or 8 months old, which is when I would start 3 handed casting after FF, would you need the dog to be on a rope?
    I think new people are handicapped by blindly following a "system" without thinking for them selves. I understand being completely new you need some sort of guidelines. Sooo much stuff gets passed over and not discussed in internet dog training. My message to newbies is follow a program to learn the progression of teaching tasks, Lardy flow chart, but do not be afraid to use your own knoggin. If you just go out and follow a program without thinking about it you don't learn to "READ THE DOG" which really is what dog training is all about and this is pretty much impossible to explain or teach via the internet. I've seen many new people blindly following a program without thinking about it and they are only handicapping themselves. I wont tell someone not to do something because I don't think they can handle it. I'd rather tell them you can do this but watch out for this or that. "Go west young man", "Go boldly where no man has ever gone". What if Lewis and Clark were afraid to explore? John Glenn? Capt. Kirk?????
    Instead of staying "SAFE" why not teach them to "take a little risk and to back off quickly when something doesn't work". I don't believe withholding knowledge for your own good is productive.
    Maybe this is why you see so many SmarkWork users still doing baseball drills and T pattern month after month after month....

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Steve,

    I wish I were allowed to post a brief video of how I run both 3-handed casting and Mini-T. The rope is very easy to use here, and provides a very minimal pressure correction for missed casts, and whistle stops in the early going. It's very simple, and a majority of dogs pick up on these tasks readily without yelling at them needlessly for those common errors. If you'll email me I can give you a link to the video clip.

    Evan
    So jerkin them with a check cord to correct them is better than a stern "sit" command. I don't find a properly timed correction "needless" regardless of method.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

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    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  8. #28
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    When I start simple casting I use a rope to prevent shopping and to prevent from going the wrong direction. OP said this was too easy for the dog after one session, I think. But did he have dog on front sit, toss a bumper to a side pile and then give a back cast? I don't know but I suspect he may have moved on too soon.
    Wayne Nutt
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    So jerkin them with a check cord to correct them is better than a stern "sit" command. I don't find a properly timed correction "needless" regardless of method.

    /Paul
    Perhaps you jerk them with the rope. To each his own. One of the reasons I keep distances very short during the teaching of these basic casts is to keep corrections gentle and low key. It's common among many trainers to have to yell and nag verbal commands because they work with too much distance & without a rope, and the dog takes casts wrong or fails to stop, leaves the trainer yelling, nagging, or even over using the e-collar, when a simple tug of the rope at low speed does it for me. Jerk. Yell. Whatever makes you happy. i like it low key and low pressure.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    The difference, Steve, is that I'm not training people who are going to be entering a sport with multiple dogs, where they need to learn those intricate methods of training. They don't need to know the art so much as they do a good, safe set of mechanics to get the job done, with as little risk to the dog as possible.

    I think the same applies to people who are really reading and following a program and may be training one of their first few dogs.

    If you think about it, the average hunter is going to have maybe a dog every 7 or 8 years to train. That's a total of 5 or so in a lifetime. Pays to keep it simple when the skills aren't practiced that much.

    Just my opinion.

    As for holding back knowledge for my own good, that's not why I do it. I do it, so as not to confuse the client.

    I study something related to dog training every single day. It may be a blog, or another video I rented or something. I then have plenty of subjects with which to experiment.

    People who own one dog don't work toward that depth of knowledge and they have 1 dog to train.

    I find the process works a whole lot better if it's streamlined and information is shared on a need to know basis. IT works better for the client and honestly, allows me to get a lesson done in a cost effective manner.

    As that relates to rope, I think a newer trainer benefits from it more than an old hat and in that vein, it makes sense for a program like Evan's to call for it, even if it's not something he uses himself any longer.

    Like I said, just me.


    I assume people on here are wanting to learn whatever they can and ways to go about it.
    I agree that some info may be at times too much to digest and joe duck hunter doesn't need to be precise as someone that wants to enter the field trial world but we are talking about something as simple as using a rope or not here. If I am teaching a person to train their own dog I will do it just as I would a puppy introducing them at first in the simplest way and progress when they are capable. I wouldn't expect someone to be able to read a dog like Danny farmer right off the bat but I certainly would encourage them to think for them self. Example, had a guy that was starting 3 handed casting. Couldn't get the dog to go to the back pile. Had him show me how he was doing it. He set up three piles right off the bat and tried to cast to the back pile. Guess what the dog did? Yep couldnt get past the side pile. Instead of just telling the guy he was wrong and to do it this way I asked what he thought the problem was. He said the dog sees the over pile first and goes for it, I said what do you think you should do to avoid that. Guess what he figured it out. I think he learned a great deal more right there than if I had just shown him how to do it.
    I think you should give people a little more credit but that just me. If I get showed how to do something and it doesn't go as planned I will get nowhere unless I figure out and understand what happened and why and how I should go about changing things. I'm just saying that I think no matter what your goal is for your dog when you are training use some reasoning and THINK not just go through the motions.

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