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Thread: How do you handle this situation (teaching "back" casting to pile)

  1. #31
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Perhaps you jerk them with the rope. To each his own. One of the reasons I keep distances very short during the teaching of these basic casts is to keep corrections gentle and low key. It's common among many trainers to have to yell and nag verbal commands because they work with too much distance & without a rope, and the dog takes casts wrong or fails to stop, leaves the trainer yelling, nagging, or even over using the e-collar, when a simple tug of the rope at low speed does it for me. Jerk. Yell. Whatever makes you happy. i like it low key and low pressure.

    Evan


    Question Evan, at what approx. age do you teach 3 handed casting?
    I do it as mentioned shortly after FF which would be 7 or 8 months old at which time the dog knows what SIT, NO and GOOD DOG means which is all I need instead of a rope and to me that is way easier to use than a rope. I actually I think the rope hampers the trainer as well as the dog. I too teach it short and simple one pile at a time, so that I DONT need a rope.
    I have seen your video. Not knocking it just giving a different view point. I have seen most of your material and also agree with most of it and think that it is very good for a lot of people. I have also worked with a few people that went by your program that wouldn't listen to anything else. Well Evan doesn't do it that way or Evan does this only to see them a year or two down the road doing something a little different and I just say that's what I was trying to tell you a year ago.
    I say use Smartworks there is tons of good stuff in there but don't forget to think for yourself. Personally I think your program is to heavy and robotic on drill work. People and dog both need to think for themselves.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Perhaps you jerk them with the rope. To each his own. One of the reasons I keep distances very short during the teaching of these basic casts is to keep corrections gentle and low key. It's common among many trainers to have to yell and nag verbal commands because they work with too much distance & without a rope, and the dog takes casts wrong or fails to stop, leaves the trainer yelling, nagging, or even over using the e-collar, when a simple tug of the rope at low speed does it for me. Jerk. Yell. Whatever makes you happy. i like it low key and low pressure.

    Evan
    Like in your video of CC to here with the Golden that is spinning around confused and then cowering against you legs with its ears, tail down?

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
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    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

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    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  3. #33
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Is op the person that was "sorta" following a program?
    Wayne Nutt
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    It's not a matter of age Steve. Very little of this is relative to age, so much as level of maturity for each pup...that and how reliable the pup has become with foundational skills. While I'm using the 25 foot rope, I'm usually only using 10 or 12 feet of it. I have more if I need it, which would be quite rare. With or without rope, which one is easier is a personal matter. I'm still waiting for a client to approach me with a complaint that rope use is complicated in casting drills. Some get tangle issues during "Here", but that's usually short lived.

    As to progression, if you have my first book you also have the flow chart, which lays out a chronology of skill acquisition. Like you, I formalize all fundamental obedience commands prior to FF, and I take FF through FTP before beginning basic handling. As soon as I begin 3-handed casting the short rope is on. I may even retain the rope through the first session of full scale Single T, but not as a matter of course. As a standard, I do what the dog indicates he needs.

    I realize I have an advantage in many years of rope use, but I really do find it very simple and low key.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Force to pile and en route force are part of T work and should be done at greater distances. You can FTP in yard work as a step between walking fetch and baseball drills, however it needs to be transitioned to the field



    /Paul
    Not to be a smartbutt, but duhhh...obviously what is done during yardwork is transitioned to field work, but I'm not certain this dog and/or trainer is at the "transition to field" stage. I think the op invites more questions than answers. I would recommend having the dog complete three handed casting drills prior to moving the field and then transition to the big T. He said, the dog is not taking casts... In any case, good luck.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It's not a matter of age Steve. Very little of this is relative to age, so much as level of maturity for each pup...that and how reliable the pup has become with foundational skills. While I'm using the 25 foot rope, I'm usually only using 10 or 12 feet of it. I have more if I need it, which would be quite rare. With or without rope, which one is easier is a personal matter. I'm still waiting for a client to approach me with a complaint that rope use is complicated in casting drills. Some get tangle issues during "Here", but that's usually short lived.

    As to progression, if you have my first book you also have the flow chart, which lays out a chronology of skill acquisition. Like you, I formalize all fundamental obedience commands prior to FF, and I take FF through FTP before beginning basic handling. As soon as I begin 3-handed casting the short rope is on. I may even retain the rope through the first session of full scale Single T, but not as a matter of course. As a standard, I do what the dog indicates he needs.

    I realize I have an advantage in many years of rope use, but I really do find it very simple and low key.

    Evan


    I know it is not about age and I hate it when people put time lines on their training but dude if a dog isn't mature enough to understand sit and no the it sure aint mature enough to start casting, rope or no rope.
    As you said with or with out a rope is a personal matter so personally I see absolutely no need for it.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    I know it is not about age and I hate it when people put time lines on their training but dude if a dog isn't mature enough to understand sit and no the it sure aint mature enough to start casting, rope or no rope.
    As you said with or with out a rope is a personal matter so personally I see absolutely no need for it.
    I also said I formalize all fundamental obedience commands well ahead of basic handling. But I'm still advocating keeping it easy and low key for the dog, so I use a rope or check cord.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    For what it's worth Lardy also uses a rope to teach simple casting.
    Previously op said he was following a mix of Smartworks and Wildrose Way. I don't know anything about WW.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  9. #39
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teacher504 View Post
    Not to be a smartbutt, but duhhh...obviously what is done during yardwork is transitioned to field work, but I'm not certain this dog and/or trainer is at the "transition to field" stage. I think the op invites more questions than answers. I would recommend having the dog complete three handed casting drills prior to moving the field and then transition to the big T. He said, the dog is not taking casts... In any case, good luck.
    His posts haven't necessarily made that clear for sure. However if you're doing FTP at 70 yards, you best be beyond using a rope.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  10. #40
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    The way I understand it, is that he is working on back casts. Pile is 70 yards away from him and dog is halfway. Still too far for a practical use of rope. He only spent 1 1/2 sessions at rope distances. I have never been able to get through Lardys version of simple casting that quick.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

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