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Thread: How do you handle this situation (teaching "back" casting to pile)

  1. #11
    Member teacher504's Avatar
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    Forcing to the pile is NOT a blind drill; there is no need to stretch it out to that distance. It is part of yard work. It also should not be done in 6-8 inches of grass. Rather than ask about how to help your dog find the pile, you should find a more reasonable place to do the drill. Maybe a local park, school, or community area with low cut grass or sports filed. The point of forcing to pile is to get your dog going and to reinforce that going is the only option. If you've accomplished that (maybe you have and maybe you haven't) you may start looking for your T field, which should be a field where bumbers are clearly visible....just my two cents.

  2. #12
    Senior Member dgengr's Avatar
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    Ok for simple casting drills, yes short less than 50' "how long my check cord is" this is to simply teach the idea of a cast?

    FTP is anouther deal. How do you do FTP with out backing up your distace to 100 plus yards??? My idea of back cast is you go back till you find a bumper/duck if that is 20 yards fine but if its 100+ keep going, and i correct for popping?

    Teacher504 you bring up that this is not a blind drill.... I will admit i dont quite understand the difference in FTP and pattern blinds other than multiple piles 90 deg apart?? You still introduce the dog to the pile with a thrown bumper so how is that a blind??? Is this realy more about moving the dog around to deal with multiple piles? more of a focus drill, rather than blind?

    BTW i follow SmartWorks so my questions are from what i have learned from Evan.....

    thanks,

    Dustin
    SHR Goodwins Hat Creek Hound "Gus"

  3. #13
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teacher504 View Post
    Forcing to the pile is NOT a blind drill; there is no need to stretch it out to that distance. It is part of yard work. It also should not be done in 6-8 inches of grass. Rather than ask about how to help your dog find the pile, you should find a more reasonable place to do the drill. Maybe a local park, school, or community area with low cut grass or sports filed. The point of forcing to pile is to get your dog going and to reinforce that going is the only option. If you've accomplished that (maybe you have and maybe you haven't) you may start looking for your T field, which should be a field where bumbers are clearly visible....just my two cents.
    I respectfully disagree. Force to pile and en route force are part of T work and should be done at greater distances. You can FTP in yard work as a step between walking fetch and baseball drills, however it needs to be transitioned to the field



    /Paul
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    If you need to use this field, you may want to consider taking a weed whacker out there and trimming up the areas where you put your piles a bit. (that or just stomp the grass down nice and flat)
    Or a lawn mower. Or just find a city park, or baseball diamond; somewhere that you have unobstructed sight of your white bumpers. But when teaching those basic casts keep the distance short.



    The proportions in the diagram are correct. The distances are in "feet", not "yards". And the dog should be on a rope at all times while casts are being taught.

    Evan
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  5. #15
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Dustin, you have seen my dog, so you know I don't know what I am doing. Take this with a shaker or two of salt.

    I tend to agree with teacher504 in that FTP is not a blind drill. My understanding of FTP is that it is the very first step in transition to running blinds. You have taught the dog with FF that he has to pick things up, and now you are teaching him that he has to leave your side (at least to begin with) and run a straight line to a known pile and pick things up - sometimes through various forms of pressure - just because you say so.

    I also taught FTP on a shorter distance of about 30 yards, mostly because that's how long my backyard is. But I knew that I would move to a different (and longer) spot to begin the T and work up to the TT, and it went well. My thinking was that I would not waste time getting the dog to run 100 yards to a pile in the FTP situation when I would likely have to start from a shorter distance anyway when I moved spots, since the dogs typically do not generalize very well on that sort of thing. I got more reps on FTP that way, or at least took less time for the same amount of reps, because of the shorter distance. And then I taught the longer distance on T and TT.

    Apparently it worked out for me, because my dog's issues are with staying, not going. In hindsight, I should have used the time I saved by doing shorter FTP reps working on "sit means sit". Live and learn, I guess.

    If anybody has any additional thoughts on this I would appreciate adding them to my training journal. I guess I just don't see the need to run them 100 yards in FTP and then turn right back around and run them 100 or so yards at the end of TT, but I certainly may not know enough yet to know why my approach is not optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgengr View Post
    Ok for simple casting drills, yes short less than 50' "how long my check cord is" this is to simply teach the idea of a cast?

    FTP is anouther deal. How do you do FTP with out backing up your distace to 100 plus yards??? My idea of back cast is you go back till you find a bumper/duck if that is 20 yards fine but if its 100+ keep going, and i correct for popping?

    Teacher504 you bring up that this is not a blind drill.... I will admit i dont quite understand the difference in FTP and pattern blinds other than multiple piles 90 deg apart?? You still introduce the dog to the pile with a thrown bumper so how is that a blind??? Is this realy more about moving the dog around to deal with multiple piles? more of a focus drill, rather than blind?

    BTW i follow SmartWorks so my questions are from what i have learned from Evan.....

    thanks,

    Dustin
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  6. #16
    Senior Member dgengr's Avatar
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    Steve,

    I see what you are saying and i have the same understanding of FTP, however you basicly did the long distance FTP. the the only change is that you did it in the T and TT work. My understanding of it is that its a confedence builder for into to blind work....

    I like the long FTP because it gives me a better opportunity to force back to prevent popping...

    This would also vary from dog to dog, and as you know we have two different pups... Your dog is crazy mine is just retarted...... but at least they are the right color........
    SHR Goodwins Hat Creek Hound "Gus"

  7. #17
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Short grass, white bumpers. You can't force to pile on anything shorter than a hundred yards effectively. No idea how a rope would work a hundred yards long.

    /Paul
    it works just like a 30 footer when it is around your ankle
    Darrin Greene

  8. #18
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgengr View Post
    Your dog is crazy mine is just retarted...... but at least they are the right color........
    Game. Set. Match.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  9. #19
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    Because the poster indicated that he had already done force to pile, my suggestion would be, using a training area with short grass, to place a white 5 gallon bucket behind the back pile. This gives the dog a "Target" to lock down on, and also helps him be successful. Focusing on the bucket, gets the dog used to looking up and out on the "Dead Bird", or "dead", then "back" command from the get go. Bucket is later replaced by a white flag, which is then taken away after dog learns these steps. Also shortening the distance every time a stumbling step occurs as evan suggested works wonders. I used these buckets in the initial T's, taking the dog to a short distance from back pile, then the intersection of each side pile, identifying each pile for the dog, then sending dog each time, and perform a successful retrieve to hand, then moved to the "line" where dog would normally be sent from, when teaching the T work. The buckets, (then later the flags) worked wonders, helped dog be successful, increased her confidence, and it wasn't long before we were doing successful T work, including angle backs, angle returns. etc.with no training aids.

    Just a step that worked for me.
    Last edited by Dazed; 01-16-2014 at 10:43 PM.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgengr View Post
    Steve,

    I see what you are saying and i have the same understanding of FTP, however you basicly did the long distance FTP. the the only change is that you did it in the T and TT work. My understanding of it is that its a confedence builder for into to blind work....

    I like the long FTP because it gives me a better opportunity to force back to prevent popping...

    This would also vary from dog to dog, and as you know we have two different pups... Your dog is crazy mine is just retarted...... but at least they are the right color........


    First I want to say it seems to me the original poster is putting the cart before the horse, maybe not but that's my view. I don't do force to the pile until after 3 handed casting. I start forcing to the pile just before a mini T when I start sending from my side. I also do it close around 30 yds and give continuous pressure to the pile. This gives me the tool I need when I start T work at a distance. In double T I will also force to the back pile but it is usually with a back nick back mostly for a lack of effort or popping but sometimes just because. As with everything teach it simple then use it as a tool later.

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