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How do you handle this situation (teaching "back" casting to pile)

10K views 42 replies 14 participants last post by  mjh345 
#1 · (Edited)
Just finished force to pile. We are now on day three of teaching back casting and he is doing great. I have run into a problem twice so far, the dog charges the pile so hard when given the back cast that sometimes he runs clean over the pile and doesn't realize it. What do you do when he gets past the pile? How do you correct him? he is not yet at the point of taking hand signals so I can't direct him back to it.

In a day or two I am going to start teaching over casting. It's not that big of a deal. Just wondering if anyone has ever had any issues with this.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Are you working on simple casting (formerly called baseball)? Do you have some white bumpers in the back pile? What command did you use to get him through walking ff? Did you say "fetch"? So I would start out saying "fetch" when he gets close to the pile to solve this issue.

I use a check cord but teach simple casting before FTP.

When I start teaching the back cast in baseball I use a check cord
and start with the command fetch, then fetch back and then back.
Hope this helps.
 
#4 ·
Yes simple casting. The pile is 70 yards from me and the dog is directly in the middle. Same position he will be when we start "t". I honestly think he just doesn't see the bumper. It only happened when there was only one bumper left in the pile. I guess I kind of answered my own question with the help of Tim from the previous post. It's not the cleanest field, it has grass about 6-8" high. I just need to make it more visible.
 
#5 ·
Cody,

I don't want to steer you away from whatever program you may be following. But while you're teaching these basic casts you'll have a much easier time efficiently managing things with a rope (or check cord), and by shortening your distances WAY up. Distance isn't important right now. Making the rules clear is. Just a suggestion.

Evan
 
#6 ·
if I had 8" grass and one bumper I would give the benefit of the doubt. sit him and call him back.

if I had a golf green and 8 bumpers and he ran by them I would think it was avoidance and handle accordingly.

One way to avoid the high grass problem is using a bucket or a white post of some sort and associating the bumpers with that object.
 
#14 ·
If you need to use this field, you may want to consider taking a weed whacker out there and trimming up the areas where you put your piles a bit. (that or just stomp the grass down nice and flat)
Or a lawn mower. Or just find a city park, or baseball diamond; somewhere that you have unobstructed sight of your white bumpers. But when teaching those basic casts keep the distance short.



The proportions in the diagram are correct. The distances are in "feet", not "yards". And the dog should be on a rope at all times while casts are being taught.

Evan
 
#11 ·
Forcing to the pile is NOT a blind drill; there is no need to stretch it out to that distance. It is part of yard work. It also should not be done in 6-8 inches of grass. Rather than ask about how to help your dog find the pile, you should find a more reasonable place to do the drill. Maybe a local park, school, or community area with low cut grass or sports filed. The point of forcing to pile is to get your dog going and to reinforce that going is the only option. If you've accomplished that (maybe you have and maybe you haven't) you may start looking for your T field, which should be a field where bumbers are clearly visible....just my two cents.
 
#13 ·
I respectfully disagree. Force to pile and en route force are part of T work and should be done at greater distances. You can FTP in yard work as a step between walking fetch and baseball drills, however it needs to be transitioned to the field



/Paul
 
#12 ·
Ok for simple casting drills, yes short less than 50' "how long my check cord is" this is to simply teach the idea of a cast?

FTP is anouther deal. How do you do FTP with out backing up your distace to 100 plus yards??? My idea of back cast is you go back till you find a bumper/duck if that is 20 yards fine but if its 100+ keep going, and i correct for popping?

Teacher504 you bring up that this is not a blind drill.... I will admit i dont quite understand the difference in FTP and pattern blinds other than multiple piles 90 deg apart?? You still introduce the dog to the pile with a thrown bumper so how is that a blind??? Is this realy more about moving the dog around to deal with multiple piles? more of a focus drill, rather than blind?

BTW i follow SmartWorks so my questions are from what i have learned from Evan.....

thanks,

Dustin
 
#15 ·
Dustin, you have seen my dog, so you know I don't know what I am doing. Take this with a shaker or two of salt.

I tend to agree with teacher504 in that FTP is not a blind drill. My understanding of FTP is that it is the very first step in transition to running blinds. You have taught the dog with FF that he has to pick things up, and now you are teaching him that he has to leave your side (at least to begin with) and run a straight line to a known pile and pick things up - sometimes through various forms of pressure - just because you say so.

I also taught FTP on a shorter distance of about 30 yards, mostly because that's how long my backyard is. But I knew that I would move to a different (and longer) spot to begin the T and work up to the TT, and it went well. My thinking was that I would not waste time getting the dog to run 100 yards to a pile in the FTP situation when I would likely have to start from a shorter distance anyway when I moved spots, since the dogs typically do not generalize very well on that sort of thing. I got more reps on FTP that way, or at least took less time for the same amount of reps, because of the shorter distance. And then I taught the longer distance on T and TT.

Apparently it worked out for me, because my dog's issues are with staying, not going. In hindsight, I should have used the time I saved by doing shorter FTP reps working on "sit means sit". Live and learn, I guess.

If anybody has any additional thoughts on this I would appreciate adding them to my training journal. I guess I just don't see the need to run them 100 yards in FTP and then turn right back around and run them 100 or so yards at the end of TT, but I certainly may not know enough yet to know why my approach is not optimal.
 
#16 ·
Steve,

I see what you are saying and i have the same understanding of FTP, however you basicly did the long distance FTP. the the only change is that you did it in the T and TT work. My understanding of it is that its a confedence builder for into to blind work....

I like the long FTP because it gives me a better opportunity to force back to prevent popping...

This would also vary from dog to dog, and as you know we have two different pups... Your dog is crazy mine is just retarted...... but at least they are the right color........
 
#19 · (Edited)
Because the poster indicated that he had already done force to pile, my suggestion would be, using a training area with short grass, to place a white 5 gallon bucket behind the back pile. This gives the dog a "Target" to lock down on, and also helps him be successful. Focusing on the bucket, gets the dog used to looking up and out on the "Dead Bird", or "dead", then "back" command from the get go. Bucket is later replaced by a white flag, which is then taken away after dog learns these steps. Also shortening the distance every time a stumbling step occurs as evan suggested works wonders. I used these buckets in the initial T's, taking the dog to a short distance from back pile, then the intersection of each side pile, identifying each pile for the dog, then sending dog each time, and perform a successful retrieve to hand, then moved to the "line" where dog would normally be sent from, when teaching the T work. The buckets, (then later the flags) worked wonders, helped dog be successful, increased her confidence, and it wasn't long before we were doing successful T work, including angle backs, angle returns. etc.with no training aids.

Just a step that worked for me.
 
#24 · (Edited)
The difference, Steve, is that I'm not training people who are going to be entering a sport with multiple dogs, where they need to learn those intricate methods of training. They don't need to know the art so much as they do a good, safe set of mechanics to get the job done, with as little risk to the dog as possible.

I think the same applies to people who are really reading and following a program and may be training one of their first few dogs.

If you think about it, the average hunter is going to have maybe a dog every 7 or 8 years to train. That's a total of 5 or so in a lifetime. Pays to keep it simple when the skills aren't practiced that much.

Just my opinion.

As for holding back knowledge for my own good, that's not why I do it. I do it, so as not to confuse the client.

I study something related to dog training every single day. It may be a blog, or another video I rented or something. I then have plenty of subjects with which to experiment.

People who own one dog don't work toward that depth of knowledge and they have 1 dog to train.

I find the process works a whole lot better if it's streamlined and information is shared on a need to know basis. IT works better for the client and honestly, allows me to get a lesson done in a cost effective manner.

As that relates to rope, I think a newer trainer benefits from it more than an old hat and in that vein, it makes sense for a program like Evan's to call for it, even if it's not something he uses himself any longer.

Like I said, just me.
 
#30 ·
I assume people on here are wanting to learn whatever they can and ways to go about it.
I agree that some info may be at times too much to digest and joe duck hunter doesn't need to be precise as someone that wants to enter the field trial world but we are talking about something as simple as using a rope or not here. If I am teaching a person to train their own dog I will do it just as I would a puppy introducing them at first in the simplest way and progress when they are capable. I wouldn't expect someone to be able to read a dog like Danny farmer right off the bat but I certainly would encourage them to think for them self. Example, had a guy that was starting 3 handed casting. Couldn't get the dog to go to the back pile. Had him show me how he was doing it. He set up three piles right off the bat and tried to cast to the back pile. Guess what the dog did? Yep couldnt get past the side pile. Instead of just telling the guy he was wrong and to do it this way I asked what he thought the problem was. He said the dog sees the over pile first and goes for it, I said what do you think you should do to avoid that. Guess what he figured it out. I think he learned a great deal more right there than if I had just shown him how to do it.
I think you should give people a little more credit but that just me. If I get showed how to do something and it doesn't go as planned I will get nowhere unless I figure out and understand what happened and why and how I should go about changing things. I'm just saying that I think no matter what your goal is for your dog when you are training use some reasoning and THINK not just go through the motions.
 
#28 ·
When I start simple casting I use a rope to prevent shopping and to prevent from going the wrong direction. OP said this was too easy for the dog after one session, I think. But did he have dog on front sit, toss a bumper to a side pile and then give a back cast? I don't know but I suspect he may have moved on too soon.
 
#33 ·
Is op the person that was "sorta" following a program?
 
#34 ·
It's not a matter of age Steve. Very little of this is relative to age, so much as level of maturity for each pup...that and how reliable the pup has become with foundational skills. While I'm using the 25 foot rope, I'm usually only using 10 or 12 feet of it. I have more if I need it, which would be quite rare. With or without rope, which one is easier is a personal matter. I'm still waiting for a client to approach me with a complaint that rope use is complicated in casting drills. Some get tangle issues during "Here", but that's usually short lived.

As to progression, if you have my first book you also have the flow chart, which lays out a chronology of skill acquisition. Like you, I formalize all fundamental obedience commands prior to FF, and I take FF through FTP before beginning basic handling. As soon as I begin 3-handed casting the short rope is on. I may even retain the rope through the first session of full scale Single T, but not as a matter of course. As a standard, I do what the dog indicates he needs.

I realize I have an advantage in many years of rope use, but I really do find it very simple and low key.

Evan
 
#36 ·
I know it is not about age and I hate it when people put time lines on their training but dude if a dog isn't mature enough to understand sit and no the it sure aint mature enough to start casting, rope or no rope.
As you said with or with out a rope is a personal matter so personally I see absolutely no need for it.
 
#38 ·
For what it's worth Lardy also uses a rope to teach simple casting.
Previously op said he was following a mix of Smartworks and Wildrose Way. I don't know anything about WW.
 
#40 ·
The way I understand it, is that he is working on back casts. Pile is 70 yards away from him and dog is halfway. Still too far for a practical use of rope. He only spent 1 1/2 sessions at rope distances. I have never been able to get through Lardys version of simple casting that quick.
 
#41 ·
Wow this has gotten out of hand. I do appreciate the responses though.

My question was answered in the first couple of posts.

This dog handles well and is past the point of needing a lead. All that happened was I was doing it in grass a little too tall. This dog cast his lines so hard that he ran past the pile a couple times due to the high grass. Thats all. No biggy.

I will be careful what I ask next time. Folks here sure do jump to conclusions. I ain't no pro but I also ain't stupid.
 
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