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Thread: You can't have war without troops...

  1. #11
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    This thread is not about defending the homeland but unnessary wars abroad.


    “What a terrible era in which idiots govern the blind.”
    ― William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

    and

    “These growing feathers pluck'd from Caesar's wing
    Will make him fly an ordinary pitch,
    Who else would soar above the view of men
    And keep us all in servile fearfulness.”
    ― more Shakespere from Julius Caesar
    Last edited by Franco; 01-15-2014 at 11:30 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  2. #12
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    It is an attack on Soldiers.


    Even though it is U.S. soldiers who make all of these things possible, they are apparently immune from criticism. Seemingly oblivious to the very things they condemn, many critics of war and the warfare state still spout the same nonsense about the troops as the most diehard red-state conservative warmonger: “Support the troops,” “The troops defend our freedoms,” “God bless the troops,” “Pray for the troops in harm’s way,” “Thank the troops for their service,” “The American soldier and Jesus Christ, one gives his life for your freedom, the other for your soul.”

    Which is to say here is the criticism.

    But as a preface to his article, the author prints this statement from the second paragraph of the article:
    I am a supporter of our troops. I believe they are patriots and America’s best. It is not the bravery or skill of our troops that I question; it is the imperial foreign policy which sends them as sacrifices on the altar of political ambition that I question.
    But what is there to support about U.S. troops? Should we support them for voluntarily joining an evil institution? Should we support them for fighting unjust wars? Should we support them for blindly following orders? Should we support them for fighting foreign wars? Should we support them for perpetuating the myth that they defend our freedoms? Should we support them for fighting undeclared wars? Should we support them for helping to create more terrorists? Should we support them for helping to carry out an evil U.S. foreign policy? Should we support them for fighting unnecessary wars? Should we support them for invading and occupying foreign countries? Should we support them for fighting immoral wars? Should we support them for maiming and killing hundreds of thousands of people that were no threat to the United States?

    Here he is saying in essence good article, but why preface it with support for the troops, because we ought to be holding them in contempt.


    Are U.S. soldiers America’s best? The typical American worker in a factory or on a construction site will probably disagree. Soldiers certainly aren’t all America’s best. Some soldiers are downright dumb. There is no doubt that U.S. soldiers are America’s best when it comes to suicide, divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, and sexual assault (13,900 men and 12,100 women in the military experienced “unwanted sexual contact” in 2012). And, of course, there are the infamous military values and standards of conduct.

    Here he is explaining why people in uniform are very bad people.


    The early Christian author Lactantius said of the Romans:
    They despise indeed the excellence of the athlete, because there is no harm in it; but royal excellence, because it is wont to do harm extensively, they so admire that they think that brave and warlike generals are placed in the assembly of the gods, and that there is no other way to immortality than by leading armies, devastating foreign (countries), destroying cities, overthrowing towns, (and) either slaughtering or enslaving free peoples. Truly, the more men they have afflicted, despoiled, (and) slain, the more noble and renowned do they think themselves; and, captured by the appearance of empty glory, they give the name of excellence to their crimes. Now I would rather that they should make gods for themselves from the slaughter of wild beasts than that they should approve of an immortality so bloody. If any one has slain a single man, he is regarded as contaminated and wicked, nor do they think it right that he should be admitted to this earthly dwelling of the gods. But he who has slaughtered endless thousands of men, deluged the fields with blood, (and) infected rivers (with it), is admitted not only to a temple, but even to heaven.

    Now a quote as to why they ought not be allowed into heaven.


    Just as you can’t have a war on drugs without DEA agents, just as you can’t have invasive airline security procedures without TSA agents, and just as you can’t have a police state without police, so you can’t have a war without soldiers.
    This mindset that exalts and excuses soldiers for doing things that ordinary Americans would be put in prison for must be destroyed.

    paraphrasing, but that it is the soldiers fault because there are wars and if we were not all hypocritical A-Holes we would lock them up.


    There is so many things derailed on this guys logic train it is hard to get a bearing on where to start. I will simply close out on this. It is a poor misunderstanding of the world to try and put the blame for wars on the soldiers and they absolutely deserve every bit of support we give them and much more whether if you agree with what they are doing or not.
    During break time at obedience school, two dogs were talking.
    One said to the other..."The thing I hate about obedience school is you learn ALL this stuff you will never use in the real world."

  3. #13
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post

    It is an attack on Soldiers.



    Go back to the first post on this thread. If Mud is attacking anything, it is our failed Foreign Policy!
    (see the second paragraph)

    He's not advocating doing away with soldiers, Marines, police, firemen etc.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

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    Thanks for your response Henlee, I still do not understand where the author says that they can't go to heaven. He might say that what soldiers are doing is wrong, but I believe he has the correct theology of salvation where it is not "only good people go to heaven", but "there is no such thing as a good person and everyone can go no matter what they have done". The author is trying to point out some hypocrisy of war. As I said earlier, I am not as extreme as this guy personally. But for foreign policy to change, I think it will need soldiers to quit or not follow out orders that are not honorable or noble. Maybe even not deploying to conflicts that are not justified by just war doctrine. Civil Disobedience is needed in an out of control government. I am not talking about getting rid of soldiers, but supporting them (which I already do with tax dollars) with encouragement to stand up for truth and honor.

    It is not honorable to be dutiful to a dishonorable leader. As judge Napolitano says "Truth is treason in an empire of lies"

    Shinyhead, your thinking is really scary. You would have made a great SS in WW2. Just follow orders or you will get fired.

    Am I in the minority here who think that there is a higher authority than our government? You don't even have to believe in God to believe that. For example, and atheist would be asked to do something wrong by a leader, then disobey on premise of truth or decency.

    And, I think it was Bon,-I understand where your father came from as that is the soil in which I grew. My grandfather fought for the same reasons. At least there was an attainable goal to WW2 with positive outcomes instead of the quagmires we have sent our soldiers to since then.

    I think soldiers need to be more loyal to our human condition(whether God or an Idea) than our leaders in Washington.

  5. #15
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    Thanks for your response Henlee, I still do not understand where the author says that they can't go to heaven. He might say that what soldiers are doing is wrong, but I believe he has the correct theology of salvation where it is not "only good people go to heaven", but "there is no such thing as a good person and everyone can go no matter what they have done". The author is trying to point out some hypocrisy of war. As I said earlier, I am not as extreme as this guy personally. But for foreign policy to change, I think it will need soldiers to quit or not follow out orders that are not honorable or noble. Maybe even not deploying to conflicts that are not justified by just war doctrine. Civil Disobedience is needed in an out of control government. I am not talking about getting rid of soldiers, but supporting them (which I already do with tax dollars) with encouragement to stand up for truth and honor.

    It is not honorable to be dutiful to a dishonorable leader. As judge Napolitano says "Truth is treason in an empire of lies"

    Shinyhead, your thinking is really scary. You would have made a great SS in WW2. Just follow orders or you will get fired.

    Am I in the minority here who think that there is a higher authority than our government? You don't even have to believe in God to believe that. For example, and atheist would be asked to do something wrong by a leader, then disobey on premise of truth or decency.

    And, I think it was Bon,-I understand where your father came from as that is the soil in which I grew. My grandfather fought for the same reasons. At least there was an attainable goal to WW2 with positive outcomes instead of the quagmires we have sent our soldiers to since then.

    I think soldiers need to be more loyal to our human condition(whether God or an Idea) than our leaders in Washington.
    I didnt want to address your entire post, just the section I highlighted...If that were to happen many innocent people might die...My brother Jerry declared himself a conscientious objector when he was drafted in the Army, because it conflicted with his religious beliefs..it was not a problem, he served his hitch with no problems,no conflicts..That was then, when there was a draft...

    Now with a volunteer army, before one puts on the uniform one must examine their conscience because once the logistics are in place,peoples lives are dependent on every person in uniform to do his/her job...As much as those who deal with a romantic ideology that wars would stop if soldiers would lay down their arms, its not going to happen. It would be equally absurd to say lets disarm our soldiers and not give them guns and bullets..Stopping the wars is not going to cease by removing the pawns(soldiers),
    All my Exes live in Texas

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    Thanks for your response Henlee, I still do not understand where the author says that they can't go to heaven. He might say that what soldiers are doing is wrong, but I believe he has the correct theology of salvation where it is not "only good people go to heaven", but "there is no such thing as a good person and everyone can go no matter what they have done". The author is trying to point out some hypocrisy of war. As I said earlier, I am not as extreme as this guy personally. But for foreign policy to change, I think it will need soldiers to quit or not follow out orders that are not honorable or noble. Maybe even not deploying to conflicts that are not justified by just war doctrine. Civil Disobedience is needed in an out of control government. I am not talking about getting rid of soldiers, but supporting them (which I already do with tax dollars) with encouragement to stand up for truth and honor.

    It is not honorable to be dutiful to a dishonorable leader. As judge Napolitano says "Truth is treason in an empire of lies"

    Shinyhead, your thinking is really scary. You would have made a great SS in WW2. Just follow orders or you will get fired.

    Am I in the minority here who think that there is a higher authority than our government? You don't even have to believe in God to believe that. For example, and atheist would be asked to do something wrong by a leader, then disobey on premise of truth or decency.

    And, I think it was Bon,-I understand where your father came from as that is the soil in which I grew. My grandfather fought for the same reasons. At least there was an attainable goal to WW2 with positive outcomes instead of the quagmires we have sent our soldiers to since then.

    I think soldiers need to be more loyal to our human condition(whether God or an Idea) than our leaders in Washington.

    So you think it's ok to be insubordinate when your employer tells you to do something? You must have an unending supply of money where you can just get fired for insubordination and not worry about paying your bills. I grew up with a military father who taught us that, you don't have to like it, you just have to do it because it's your job. What do you think would happen to us if every soldier just told the commanding officers that they're refusing to follow orders because they think it's wrong and goes against their beliefs? We would be attacked by people that don't like us because they would know that our soldiers routinely disobey orders and do only what feels good to them.
    Last edited by shinyhead; 01-16-2014 at 02:28 PM.

  7. #17
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    If something is immoral, unjust, and untruthful and is asked by my employer, I will say no and accept the repercussions. I do not want to work for someone who is deceitful. Are you your own person or someone else's? Seriously I hope you are kidding with this.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    If something is immoral, unjust, and untruthful and is asked by my employer, I will say no and accept the repercussions. I do not want to work for someone who is deceitful. Are you your own person or someone else's? Seriously I hope you are kidding with this.
    I will do what I'm told as long as it doesn't break any laws or doesn't jeapordize anyone's safety. I will respectfully object to the direction, but will ultimately "follow orders". I may not like it, but I will do it, because that is what the job requires. If you can afford to be insubordinate and risk losing your job, good for you, I just need my job probably more than you do.

  9. #19
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    So money is more important than morals and doing what is right?

    By any chance, do you work in Washington, D.C.? You'd fit right in

  10. #20
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    Living with a roof over my head as opposed to living on the street is more important to me than some self righteous non-sensicle insubordination. Never been asked to do anything that I would consider immoral. I was not in the military, but my father and brothers were, so following orders was instilled in us at a young age. You sure that you're not the 2nd coming of Jesus? You appear to be holier than everybody else and you would rather be crucified than follow orders.

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