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Thread: You can't have war without troops...

  1. #31
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    This blind support of the military is the problem. The troops are pawns in the game of war, and no one cares about sacrificing a pawn in the game...protect the king and queen at all cost. Are in our game make money for the ones that will keep them in power

    The protesters of Viatnam had it right....they saw their friends and family dying for no good reason except for following orders. The aged white population did not like them because they went against the norm. Many of the young folks were there just for the party so it gave them no credibility.

    Afganistan and Iraq were easy wars to start because everyone was angry about 911, so the powers at the time could put our pawns in harms way with no push back.

    I'm not advocating that soilders should disobey orders, nor am I saying that the powers are not always making the wrong decisions, but I think many give them a free pass, and something as dangerous as war or putting men and women in harms way should never be taken lightly.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Many words from those who never served and have strong opinions about things that they do not understand. Mudminnow, I don't intend to be offensive or insulting, but you cannot truly understand service, duty and honor as it is understood by those who chose to serve and then continue to do so after having first-hand experience. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and are welcome to share it here, but the idea that servicemen should choose to disobey orders because they disagree with them is laughably misguided. Comparing your relationship with your employer to the relationship between a leader and his subordinates in combat is so ridiculous as to border on insulting. But hey, it's easy to sit here and throw this stuff around when there's nothing at stake but maybe offending some faceless names on an internet forum. Just be assured that those you speak of are cut from a different cloth than you are and understand things you can never grasp.
    Matt McKenzie

    It takes as long as it takes. Sometimes longer.

    "It is better to own a $50,000 dog and have an old truck and crummy equipment than to own $50,000 worth of new equipment and a crummy dog..." EdA

  3. #33
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    Matt, very good post. Walk in a service man's shoes etc. before one can talk about it.
    charly

    There ought to be one day -- just one -- when there is open season on Congressmen.
    ~Will Rogers~

  4. #34
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    That's what I was trying to say, but didn't seem to be able to word it correctly. My father and brothers were all military men. Dad WW2, oldest brother Naval acadamy, one army and one Marine. I wanted to go in the Airforce but couldn't because of bad knees from wrestling and football. Even though I was not in the service, I have a pretty good understanding of the military duties, chain of command and giving and following orders.

  5. #35
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Default This is not a new discussion.

    "Universal Soldier"

    He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
    He fights with missiles and with spears.
    He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
    Been a soldier for a thousand years.

    He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
    A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
    And he knows he shouldn't kill,
    And he knows he always will,
    Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

    And he's fighting for Canada,
    He's fighting for France,
    He's fighting for the USA,
    And he's fighting for the Russians,
    And he's fighting for Japan,
    And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

    And he's fighting for Democracy,
    He's fighting for the Reds,
    He says it's for the peace of all.
    He's the one who must decide,
    Who's to live and who's to die,
    And he never sees the writing on the wall.

    But without him,
    How would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau?
    Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
    He's the one who gives his body
    As a weapon of the war,
    And without him all this killing can't go on.

    He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
    His orders come from far away no more,
    They come from here and there and you and me,
    And brothers can't you see,
    This is not the way we put the end to war.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  6. #36
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    Many words from those who never served and have strong opinions about things that they do not understand. Mudminnow, I don't intend to be offensive or insulting, but you cannot truly understand service, duty and honor as it is understood by those who chose to serve and then continue to do so after having first-hand experience. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and are welcome to share it here, but the idea that servicemen should choose to disobey orders because they disagree with them is laughably misguided. Comparing your relationship with your employer to the relationship between a leader and his subordinates in combat is so ridiculous as to border on insulting. But hey, it's easy to sit here and throw this stuff around when there's nothing at stake but maybe offending some faceless names on an internet forum. Just be assured that those you speak of are cut from a different cloth than you are and understand things you can never grasp.

    Matt

    Thank You!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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  7. #37
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    Matt, thank you for your response, but it comes off as pretty arrogant. "You just don't understand and you cant, just trust us""cut from a different cloth" etc. I could have just as easily joined the military and actually contemplated it. I am from the same cloth that a lot of folks in the military are from. Conservative Christian upbringing, public school, likes guns, family history of people fighting in America back to the French and Indian war.

    Truths outside the military are still true inside the military even if your leader tells you different.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Sorry if I sounded arrogant. Maybe I should try to approach this from a different angle. Yes, MM, you could have joined the military. Many here could have. You might have done very well there. You might have decided that obeying orders that you disagree with is not for you and moved on to something else. In all branches of our military, many join, some stay, most leave. Some leave voluntarily, some do not. But from the first organized army to today's modern military in every country in the world, the basic premise of an army is that subordinates obey leaders. Some military organizations require absolute unquestioning obedience, some not as much. But in order for a group of people to achieve a goal by going into harms way, facing mortal danger and injuring and killing fellow humans, an inordinate level of control is required so that it doesn't dissolve into chaos. This isn't a new concept and it doesn't seem to me to be particularly complicated. Without discipline and obedience, a military unit becomes just a group of individuals in funny clothes.
    As distasteful as it is, we have to have our military to prevent others from taking what is ours. We have to fund it with money we could use for other things. We have to put our young people in harm's way to achieve our goals. We have to deal with the social and political consequences of maintaining a strong military and using it around the world.
    But at the root of it all, we have to have people willing to serve in that role and willing to obey orders that they may not agree with because we elected leaders to make decisions about foreign policy. Those leaders need tools to enact policy decisions. One of those tools is our military. If our elected leaders use the threat of military action to achieve a foreign policy objective, they have to KNOW that when they give the order that our troops will be there to take action. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what would happen otherwise.
    Some of you may know that I spent a career in the Navy. While I was occasionally in dangerous situations, I by no means compare my service to those who faced the enemy in direct action combat. Those folks have faced and continue to face things that I can never truly understand. I suspect that those who have done it and continue to step up are cut from a different cloth than I. So my "arrogance" doesn't come from some idea that I'm some kind of war hero. I was simply a cog in a big machine that did his best to do his part in whatever mission we were given. I was involved in missions that I didn't agree with. Some because I thought they were wasteful, some because I thought they were misguided and some that I thought were horrifically stupid. But I did what I took an oath to do. I took that oath several times over the years and I took it seriously. That doesn't mean that I was a robot acting in blind obedience. There were many occasions for me to question and advise those above me in my chain of command. Sometimes I changed things, sometimes I didn't. There were times when my subordinates changed my decisions by offering a different view. But at the end of the day, we all took orders.
    My point to all of this is that those who do not understand the need for obedience in the military do not understand the nature of the military. It is so simple as to be obvious, but some people can't seem to understand that. I'm not sure why that is, but it is.
    As the idea that all truths outside the military are truths inside the military has led to some really bad decisions by our elected leaders, but that is a conversation for a different thread. There are many values and ideals that I hold to be important for society at large that have no business in the military. One man's opinion.
    Matt McKenzie

    It takes as long as it takes. Sometimes longer.

    "It is better to own a $50,000 dog and have an old truck and crummy equipment than to own $50,000 worth of new equipment and a crummy dog..." EdA

  9. #39
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    Sorry if I sounded arrogant. Maybe I should try to approach this from a different angle. Yes, MM, you could have joined the military. Many here could have. You might have done very well there. You might have decided that obeying orders that you disagree with is not for you and moved on to something else. In all branches of our military, many join, some stay, most leave. Some leave voluntarily, some do not. But from the first organized army to today's modern military in every country in the world, the basic premise of an army is that subordinates obey leaders. Some military organizations require absolute unquestioning obedience, some not as much. But in order for a group of people to achieve a goal by going into harms way, facing mortal danger and injuring and killing fellow humans, an inordinate level of control is required so that it doesn't dissolve into chaos. This isn't a new concept and it doesn't seem to me to be particularly complicated. Without discipline and obedience, a military unit becomes just a group of individuals in funny clothes.
    As distasteful as it is, we have to have our military to prevent others from taking what is ours. We have to fund it with money we could use for other things. We have to put our young people in harm's way to achieve our goals. We have to deal with the social and political consequences of maintaining a strong military and using it around the world.
    But at the root of it all, we have to have people willing to serve in that role and willing to obey orders that they may not agree with because we elected leaders to make decisions about foreign policy. Those leaders need tools to enact policy decisions. One of those tools is our military. If our elected leaders use the threat of military action to achieve a foreign policy objective, they have to KNOW that when they give the order that our troops will be there to take action. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what would happen otherwise.
    Some of you may know that I spent a career in the Navy. While I was occasionally in dangerous situations, I by no means compare my service to those who faced the enemy in direct action combat. Those folks have faced and continue to face things that I can never truly understand. I suspect that those who have done it and continue to step up are cut from a different cloth than I. So my "arrogance" doesn't come from some idea that I'm some kind of war hero. I was simply a cog in a big machine that did his best to do his part in whatever mission we were given. I was involved in missions that I didn't agree with. Some because I thought they were wasteful, some because I thought they were misguided and some that I thought were horrifically stupid. But I did what I took an oath to do. I took that oath several times over the years and I took it seriously. That doesn't mean that I was a robot acting in blind obedience. There were many occasions for me to question and advise those above me in my chain of command. Sometimes I changed things, sometimes I didn't. There were times when my subordinates changed my decisions by offering a different view. But at the end of the day, we all took orders.
    My point to all of this is that those who do not understand the need for obedience in the military do not understand the nature of the military. It is so simple as to be obvious, but some people can't seem to understand that. I'm not sure why that is, but it is.
    As the idea that all truths outside the military are truths inside the military has led to some really bad decisions by our elected leaders, but that is a conversation for a different thread. There are many values and ideals that I hold to be important for society at large that have no business in the military. One man's opinion.
    Duty, Honor, Country!!!

    Matt, if you have to explain it, they will never understand!

    You give your WORD, to some that matters, others, not so much.
    You serve for the guy next to you.


    Proof again that the smartest people here are progressives, because they read about what we did!!!!
    Last edited by road kill; 01-18-2014 at 10:10 AM.

  10. #40
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    Many words from those who never served and have strong opinions about things that they do not understand. Mudminnow, I don't intend to be offensive or insulting, but you cannot truly understand service, duty and honor as it is understood by those who chose to serve and then continue to do so after having first-hand experience. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and are welcome to share it here, but the idea that servicemen should choose to disobey orders because they disagree with them is laughably misguided. Comparing your relationship with your employer to the relationship between a leader and his subordinates in combat is so ridiculous as to border on insulting. But hey, it's easy to sit here and throw this stuff around when there's nothing at stake but maybe offending some faceless names on an internet forum. Just be assured that those you speak of are cut from a different cloth than you are and understand things you can never grasp.
    I guess that could be true,,,just as true as someone who is not a drug addict but has lived with one their whole life. How on earth could that person know what its like to be on drugs, after all they are not a drug addict.
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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