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Thread: You can't have war without troops...

  1. #41
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    So where does a soldier draw the line.

    Stalin ,,Hitler ,,Poepot,, mayer of N.O. , the list goes on. All have ordered oppression and or death on their own people. martial law may well become a reality someday here in the U.S.

    If they are willing to draw on me and my family then guess what. They are my enemy. Someone not to be revered.
    And you say total submission to your commander and chief is a good thing.?
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Duty, Honor, Country!!!

    Matt, if you have to explain it, they will never understand!

    You give your WORD, to some that matters, others, not so much.
    You serve for the guy next to you.


    Proof again that the smartest people here are progressives, because they read about what we did!!!!
    Matt's 2 posts were right on - you only feel it when you are there - we no longer ask people to serve their country & as such we have created the mercenary soldier, who in many cases is no less dedicated than those who were conscripted. But I prefer the draft!

    Do I feel military spending has gotten out of hand? Yes. Do I feel we are suffering from severe mission creep? Yes. But as Matt says there are many who are in the thick of things - my heartfelt appreciation goes out to them.

    I don't wear a Veterans hat - when a memorial was put up in our town my brick has no name on it, I am proud to have served as my forebears & descendants have also. I desire no more recognition than that.

    During the Vietnam war we had a discussion of serving in our engineering group. As our mission was essential Engineers got a deferment, not only to finish school but in employment. I told them all they were just a bunch of Draft Dodgers. For that I got hauled into the bosses office to receive a lecture on hurting people's feelings. Shortly thereafter, the notice of 25 years pins was published with my bosses name on it, which made him a WW II Draft Dodger.

    In life there are talkers & there are doers, You have to ask yourself individually, which are you?
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  3. #43
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    Matt, thank you for your response, but it comes off as pretty arrogant. "You just don't understand and you cant, just trust us""cut from a different cloth" etc. I could have just as easily joined the military and actually contemplated it. I am from the same cloth that a lot of folks in the military are from. Conservative Christian upbringing, public school, likes guns, family history of people fighting in America back to the French and Indian war.

    Truths outside the military are still true inside the military even if your leader tells you different.
    But you didn't... They did
    Bill Davis

  4. #44
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    In all of our conflicts today, I wish I could say that our military has done the most for our freedoms recently. But instead a computer tech nerd named snowden has done more for American freedom than Iraq and Afghanistan has. Imagine if he just kept quiet and followed orders...

  5. #45
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    Sorry if I sounded arrogant. Maybe I should try to approach this from a different angle. Yes, MM, you could have joined the military. Many here could have. You might have done very well there. You might have decided that obeying orders that you disagree with is not for you and moved on to something else. In all branches of our military, many join, some stay, most leave. Some leave voluntarily, some do not. But from the first organized army to today's modern military in every country in the world, the basic premise of an army is that subordinates obey leaders. Some military organizations require absolute unquestioning obedience, some not as much. But in order for a group of people to achieve a goal by going into harms way, facing mortal danger and injuring and killing fellow humans, an inordinate level of control is required so that it doesn't dissolve into chaos. This isn't a new concept and it doesn't seem to me to be particularly complicated. Without discipline and obedience, a military unit becomes just a group of individuals in funny clothes.
    As distasteful as it is, we have to have our military to prevent others from taking what is ours. We have to fund it with money we could use for other things. We have to put our young people in harm's way to achieve our goals. We have to deal with the social and political consequences of maintaining a strong military and using it around the world.
    But at the root of it all, we have to have people willing to serve in that role and willing to obey orders that they may not agree with because we elected leaders to make decisions about foreign policy. Those leaders need tools to enact policy decisions. One of those tools is our military. If our elected leaders use the threat of military action to achieve a foreign policy objective, they have to KNOW that when they give the order that our troops will be there to take action. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what would happen otherwise.
    Some of you may know that I spent a career in the Navy. While I was occasionally in dangerous situations, I by no means compare my service to those who faced the enemy in direct action combat. Those folks have faced and continue to face things that I can never truly understand. I suspect that those who have done it and continue to step up are cut from a different cloth than I. So my "arrogance" doesn't come from some idea that I'm some kind of war hero. I was simply a cog in a big machine that did his best to do his part in whatever mission we were given. I was involved in missions that I didn't agree with. Some because I thought they were wasteful, some because I thought they were misguided and some that I thought were horrifically stupid. But I did what I took an oath to do. I took that oath several times over the years and I took it seriously. That doesn't mean that I was a robot acting in blind obedience. There were many occasions for me to question and advise those above me in my chain of command. Sometimes I changed things, sometimes I didn't. There were times when my subordinates changed my decisions by offering a different view. But at the end of the day, we all took orders.
    My point to all of this is that those who do not understand the need for obedience in the military do not understand the nature of the military. It is so simple as to be obvious, but some people can't seem to understand that. I'm not sure why that is, but it is.
    As the idea that all truths outside the military are truths inside the military has led to some really bad decisions by our elected leaders, but that is a conversation for a different thread. There are many values and ideals that I hold to be important for society at large that have no business in the military. One man's opinion.

    Here is an example of an Oath Mat may have taken.

    Text of the Oath[edit]

    I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.[1]


    Our leaders take an Oath of office that says similar things.

    many of our LEADERS do not take that OATH as seriously as Matt does..

    Thank GOD for Men and Women like Matt.

    Think of the Army of Egypt! and how that army fought against Tyranny from their own leaders, and FORCED the will of the people.

    Search "Promise Keepers" and see example of how some who have taken this oath ,take it very seriously.

    I have never served in the military.. I do not posses the courage that it would take.
    I do however,believe in the Constitution. I have worked "programs" for our country, and look at that as a way to serve.

    Thank You Matt for your service.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #46
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Who do you think is responsible for putting in office, the leader that doesnt take HIS oath of office seriously, and then gives the orders to brave people like Matt?

    WE vote those leaders if office! ALL of us!!! and you want the Military to refuse orders??

    Why dont you step back and vote more responsibly... They (our leaders) work for us.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  7. #47
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    There is still the other side of the coin also. MM how would you feel if the military decided that country was headed in the wrong direction and took it over? Soldiers deciding what to do on their own can have very serious repercussions. I think to the Bosnia war if any of you recall there was a medic who refused to deploy because he felt that American troops should not be under NATO command. he was discharged. His unit then had to deploy without the guy the had put all that training and experience into. It is always the best policy to have best military solely dedicated to the government which represents us all. (whether you like it or not!)

    Inside the service is no place for a protest. You ask a soldier to refuse to fight and the consequences he faces are very sever. Almost certainly a dishonorable discharge if not prison time. It is not fair to even ask it of them to do it. We have the political process to settle these matters, so protest, organize or do whatever else you feel you ought to, but I would leave those guys out of it altogether.
    During break time at obedience school, two dogs were talking.
    One said to the other..."The thing I hate about obedience school is you learn ALL this stuff you will never use in the real world."

  8. #48
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    I understand the oath being taken, but there is an authority that supersedes the government which is noted In our founding documents.

    I don't think military coups are a good idea at all either. I always encourage folks I talk to who are set on joining the military to take the oath, but that oath should never interfere with your religion. If they are at odds, choose religion always and accept the consequences.

    And I feel like I am voting responsibly by not voting democrat or republican. I am voting for candidates that have non intervention foreign policy who welcome criticism to all branches of the government including the military. I would rather have the money stolen out of my paycheck to pay for troops to live in America rather than overseas.

    Where we are differing here I think is the hierarchy of oaths and what is more important.
    Mine is God, Family, then country

    It seems like some folks have theirs as country, God, family

  9. #49
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    I think its odd how people jump off the deep end as soon as they mis read thus totally misunderstand what is being stated.
    I read nothing in mn's post that suggest all military should disobey all orders. I would probably guess that most soldiers don't know a lot about the constituttion,,so therefor how can they uphold it. They uphold whatever they have been told period. Do you think the National guard in this clip think they are upholding the constitution. of coarse they do. However they are NOT.
    I have known many great service men and I doubt they could get passed the first or second amendment.
    there are times a soldier should follow their heart instead of their orders. The time of Katrina was one of them.
    Think pf all the hoodlems they could of been stopping instead of these good citizens who wanted nothing more than to ride out the event safely and healthily in their own home.


    Most normal people love and respect our military, as do I ,,,but I can't say that for many of our commander and chiefs.
    Most people are blinded by their emotions
    I have known and seen young military men who were assholes and weren't worth a dam also. what about them. Do we stand in awe just because they made it through bootcamp.
    There are many sides of this story. we all love those who honorably served and we owe them our gratitude and assistance if they need help down the road. However some serve dishonorably ,,to them ,,, we owe nothing

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo
    Last edited by Pete; 01-19-2014 at 10:50 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  10. #50
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    What do you believe is the reason many of our young people dont understand the Constitution?

    What do you believe is the reason that many adults DONT have a very good understanding of the Constitution?

    My own experience. I was a older person, before I took the time to study the Constitution. How about you all?

    What do you believe is the reason behind many folks not being knowledgeable about the Constitution?

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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