The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: Flyer is thrown 2nd in a land triple...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Far Northern California
    Posts
    1,276

    Default Flyer is thrown 2nd in a land triple...

    I'm hoping this will be a fun discussion topic again...

    Just been studying the test diagrams of the last Master National. I am diagraming and boiling them down for my training notebook, so I can break down the tests into doable portions to build our skills toward master level work. The Buffalo Wallow test really caught my attention.

    We've worked on doubles with out of order flyers before, but never a triple and we've always selected to get the flyer first.

    But in reading the description of the Buffalo Wallow test, I see the flyer is thrown 2nd on the far left of the test and thrown toward bird #3. Most people selected to get bird 1 or bird 3 first.

    Are out of order flyers always sluiced so they don't go anywhere? Otherwise, I would think a person would want to get the flyer first, so it doesn't move from where it was marked? Also would get flyer first to take away the suction caused by that bird. If you sent dog for the last bird down, there would be ever present suction from the flapping flyer on the ground just to the left.

    What does an out of order flyer in a triple or quad, do to a dog? Does it serve as a major distraction that may cause dog to miss the rest of the marks...

  2. #2
    Senior Member Cut em Shelby's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Good topic. Would like to hear some of the big guns weigh in on it...

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    SW LA
    Posts
    153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    I'm hoping this will be a fun discussion topic again...

    Just been studying the test diagrams of the last Master National. I am diagraming and boiling them down for my training notebook, so I can break down the tests into doable portions to build our skills toward master level work. The Buffalo Wallow test really caught my attention.

    We've worked on doubles with out of order flyers before, but never a triple and we've always selected to get the flyer first.

    But in reading the description of the Buffalo Wallow test, I see the flyer is thrown 2nd on the far left of the test and thrown toward bird #3. Most people selected to get bird 1 or bird 3 first.

    Are out of order flyers always sluiced so they don't go anywhere? Otherwise, I would think a person would want to get the flyer first, so it doesn't move from where it was marked? Also would get flyer first to take away the suction caused by that bird. If you sent dog for the last bird down, there would be ever present suction from the flapping flyer on the ground just to the left.

    What does an out of order flyer in a triple or quad, do to a dog? Does it serve as a major distraction that may cause dog to miss the rest of the marks...
    There are some dogs with very excessive creeping problems. The dog will creep out 20-30' and when the 3rd bird of the triple (which is usually a flyer) comes out, the dog will return to heel and wait to be sent. A judge told me a way to get those dogs is to throw a quad with the flyer as the 3rd bird and when the dog is returning to the mat, he/she will either not mark the go bird very well or miss the mark altogether. I thank Mr. Littlejohn for bringing that to my attention.

  4. #4
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    N. Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Are out of order flyers always sluiced so they don't go anywhere? Otherwise, I would think a person would want to get the flyer first, so it doesn't move from where it was marked? Also would get flyer first to take away the suction caused by that bird. If you sent dog for the last bird down, there would be ever present suction from the flapping flyer on the ground just to the left.
    No. IME, flyers are rarely sluiced. More common in FTs but I can't think of the last time I have seen a sluiced flyer in a HT. Most flyers are dead when they hit the ground, so flapping is not automatic. Almost everyone will send for the last bird down, regardless of whether it is a flyer or not. Many folks, even those who train on secondary selection, will at least consider getting the flyer next even if it is not the next shortest since the dog will want it anyway. On the other hand, it is the one most likely to be remembered, so it depends on the setup and the dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    What does an out of order flyer in a triple or quad, do to a dog? Does it serve as a major distraction that may cause dog to miss the rest of the marks...
    It can cause a dog to miss the rest of the marks. This is more common in FTs than HTs, though when the dog is amped up over the flyer and won't pull off to that next gun, which may be relatively difficult to see. In HTs, the duck calls and even the sound of the wingers usually makes the dog look at the next bird.

  5. #5
    Senior Member rboudet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Covington, LA
    Posts
    770

    Default

    The sluice has nothing to do with shooting the bird a second time to kill it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kajun Kamakazi View Post
    There are some dogs with very excessive creeping problems. The dog will creep out 20-30' and when the 3rd bird of the triple (which is usually a flyer) comes out, the dog will return to heel and wait to be sent. A judge told me a way to get those dogs is to throw a quad with the flyer as the 3rd bird and when the dog is returning to the mat, he/she will either not mark the go bird very well or miss the mark altogether. I thank Mr. Littlejohn for bringing that to my attention.
    If a dog is creeping 20-30feet from the handler a fourth bird is likely not needed for it to miss a mark. AND If you need to resort to tricks to "get those dogs" maybe you need better bird placements.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,222

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    I'm hoping this will be a fun discussion topic again...

    .

    Are out of order flyers always sluiced so they don't go anywhere? ...
    Never had a flyer on land sluiced and don't shoot them on water because of that. In the MN, because of all the dogs and tmajor time constrants, I get it but do not like it.

    I would probably elect the flyer first regardless of it's placement. And trying to pull him off a flyer that also has been sluiced is asking for a melt down, IMO.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  7. #7
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    N. Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    The sluice has nothing to do with shooting the bird a second time to kill it.
    I didn't mean to imply that was the reason, if that was directed at me, but it usually has that effect. Of course, in the 7th of the NRC, they had a sluiced duck flyer as the go bird and several swam away and hid before the dogs got there, so not always.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Oakdale,ct.
    Posts
    2,778

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kajun Kamakazi View Post
    There are some dogs with very excessive creeping problems. The dog will creep out 20-30' and when the 3rd bird of the triple (which is usually a flyer) comes out, the dog will return to heel and wait to be sent. A judge told me a way to get those dogs is to throw a quad with the flyer as the 3rd bird and when the dog is returning to the mat, he/she will either not mark the go bird very well or miss the mark altogether. I thank Mr. Littlejohn for bringing that to my attention.
    I have never configured a test to "GET" any particular dog or type of dogs when judging. However, a 20' creep is recorded as gross unsteadiness in my notes and as a 0 on the trainability portion of the score sheet.-Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Oakdale,ct.
    Posts
    2,778

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    I'm hoping this will be a fun discussion topic again...

    Just been studying the test diagrams of the last Master National. I am diagraming and boiling them down for my training notebook, so I can break down the tests into doable portions to build our skills toward master level work. The Buffalo Wallow test really caught my attention.

    We've worked on doubles with out of order flyers before, but never a triple and we've always selected to get the flyer first. I WOULD STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU DO SO IN ORDER TO PREPARE FOR MASTER TESTS.

    But in reading the description of the Buffalo Wallow test, I see the flyer is thrown 2nd on the far left of the test and thrown toward bird #3. Most people selected to get bird 1 or bird 3 first. KNOW YOUR DOG AND DO WHAT YOU WOULD DO IN TRAINING. DON'T TRY SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME AT A TEST.

    Are out of order flyers always sluiced so they don't go anywhere? WHEN JUDGING, I LIKE TO SLUICE ALL FLYERS ON THE WATER TESTS. IT KEEPS THE TEST AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE FOR ALL THE DOGS AND DECREASES THE CHANCES OF HAVING TO WATCH A PROLONGED CHASE THAT MAY BE FRUITLESS OR EVEN DANGEROUS. Otherwise, I would think a person would want to get the flyer first, so it doesn't move from where it was marked? DEPENDS ON THE DOG AND HOW IT WAS TRAINED. Also would get flyer first to take away the suction caused by that bird. If you sent dog for the last bird down, there would be ever present suction from the flapping flyer on the ground just to the left.

    What does an out of order flyer in a triple or quad, do to a dog? IT AFFECTS MEMORY OF THE PRECEEDING MARK(S) AND THE ABILITY OF SOME DOGS TO CONCENTRATE ON SUBSEQUENT MARKS. Does it serve as a major distraction that may cause dog to miss the rest of the marks... YES, FOR SOME DOGS IT IS A MAJOR DISTRACTION. PARTICULARLY IF THEY HAVE NOT HAD ENOUGH OF THEM IN TRAINING SITUATIONS.
    My answers are caps for contrast only. I'm not shouting at you. LOL!!!-Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    SW LA
    Posts
    153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    The sluice has nothing to do with shooting the bird a second time to kill it.




    If a dog is creeping 20-30feet from the handler a fourth bird is likely not needed for it to miss a mark. AND If you need to resort to tricks to "get those dogs" maybe you need better bird placements.
    This was a hypothetical setup that was talked about while shooting the breeze, not actually played out in a trial. Nobody was trying to "get" anybody.


    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    I have never configured a test to "GET" any particular dog or type of dogs when judging. However, a 20' creep is recorded as gross unsteadiness in my notes and as a 0 on the trainability portion of the score sheet.-Paul
    At a HT that would be so, but I was talkin about FT's, sorry didn't specify.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •