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Thread: It's France and GB's Fault

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    Default It's France and GB's Fault

    In an interview with the Atlantic, our community organizer blames the mess in Lybia on France and Great Brittian. It seems that the community organizer has a reason why HIS failures are someone else's fault. I guess that had he been sent there as a community organizer, it would not be such a bid mess.

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    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    I read the entire article when it was published. Here is what he said;

    “Now, option one would be to do nothing, and there were some in my administration who said, as tragic as the Libyan situation may be, it’s not our problem. The way I looked at it was that it would be our problem if, in fact, complete chaos and civil war broke out in Libya. But this is not so at the core of U.S. interests that it makes sense for us to unilaterally strike against the Qaddafi regime. At that point, you’ve got Europe and a number of Gulf countries who despise Qaddafi, or are concerned on a humanitarian basis, who are calling for action. But what has been a habit over the last several decades in these circumstances is people pushing us to act but then showing an unwillingness to put any skin in the game.”
    “Free riders?,” I interjected.
    “Free riders,” he said, and continued. “So what I said at that point was, we should act as part of an international coalition. But because this is not at the core of our interests, we need to get a UN mandate; we need Europeans and Gulf countries to be actively involved in the coalition; we will apply the military capabilities that are unique to us, but we expect others to carry their weight. And we worked with our defense teams to ensure that we could execute a strategy without putting boots on the ground and without a long-term military commitment in Libya.
    “So we actually executed this plan as well as I could have expected: We got a UN mandate, we built a coalition, it cost us $1 billion—which, when it comes to military operations, is very cheap. We averted large-scale civilian casualties, we prevented what almost surely would have been a prolonged and bloody civil conflict. And despite all that, Libya is a mess.”
    Mess is the president’s diplomatic term; privately, he calls Libya a “shit show,” in part because it’s subsequently become an isis haven—one that he has already targeted with air strikes. It became a shit show, Obama believes, for reasons that had less to do with American incompetence than with the passivity of America’s allies and with the obdurate power of tribalism.
    “When I go back and I ask myself what went wrong,” Obama said, “there’s room for criticism, because I had more faith in the Europeans, given Libya’s proximity, being invested in the follow-up,” he said. He noted that Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, lost his job the following year. And he said that British Prime Minister David Cameron soon stopped paying attention, becoming “distracted by a range of other things.” Of France, he said, “Sarkozy wanted to trumpet the flights he was taking in the air campaign, despite the fact that we had wiped out all the air defenses and essentially set up the entire infrastructure” for the intervention. This sort of bragging was fine, Obama said, because it allowed the U.S. to “purchase France’s involvement in a way that made it less expensive for us and less risky for us.” In other words, giving France extra credit in exchange for less risk and cost to the United States was a useful trade-off—except that “from the perspective of a lot of the folks in the foreign-policy establishment, well, that was terrible. If we’re going to do something, obviously we’ve got to be up front, and nobody else is sharing in the spotlight.”
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    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Was our intervention in Libya a mistake? Most certainly, I blame both Obama and SOS Clinton!

    Intervention is seldom a good policy which History has proven!

    However, why should we do all the heavy lifting? Why should we place boots on the ground in a county with very little implication to our National Security?

    Our Allies in the ME and Europe are unwilling to make the commitment needed as shown repeatedly over the last few decades. They want us to do it all. Our blood, our treasure and for what?

    Here is the article in its entirety.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ctrine/471525/
    Last edited by Franco; 03-11-2016 at 09:35 AM.
    "I don't believe there should be any restrictions when it comes to firearms. None." Gary Johnson
    and
    "Every single figure on Mount Rushmore was a third party at one time or another, so third parties become major parties, and I think that the Libertarian Party will become the next major party." Gary Johnson





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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    In an interview with the Atlantic, our community organizer blames the mess in Lybia on France and Great Brittian. It seems that the community organizer has a reason why HIS failures are someone else's fault. I guess that had he been sent there as a community organizer, it would not be such a bid mess.
    France and GB led the incursion into Lybia. We were only there in a support role with no boots on the ground. Congress was pretty firm about not wanting to get involved and so we didn't. So who do you want to blame?
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray

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    Senior Member swliszka's Avatar
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    Good explanation Franco because today on the BBC World Radio this AM there was a discussion of what went "wrong" in Libya? This was not from an American point of view but from a European viewpoint.Discussion was why did the Europeans lose interest after Quadaffi was killed allowing for two competing Libyan groups to evolve and with that conflict allowing ISIS to infiltrate. Variety of European, North African , Libyan "experts" held forth. End result they concluded the Europeans blew it. The update is that they said Special Ops groups from France, Italy , UK and the USA are "currently" operating in Libya. NO mention of the cited article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    France and GB led the incursion into Lybia. We were only there in a support role with no boots on the ground. Congress was pretty firm about not wanting to get involved and so we didn't. So who do you want to blame?
    I am fairly CERTAIN that I didn't say whose fault it was. I don't even think that I say that it was ANYBODY's fault!! I just thought it was refreshing that he decided to blame someone else other than Bush!!

    If you are looking for fault, read Franco's post.

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    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    In an interview with the Atlantic, our community organizer blames the mess in Lybia on France and Great Brittian. It seems that the community organizer has a reason why HIS failures are someone else's fault. I guess that had he been sent there as a community organizer, it would not be such a bid mess.
    Cary, it sure reads like you are trying to pace the blame on him for not occupying Libya.

    Obama may have many faults. But, his realization that the mess that is the ME's is not ours to solve unilaterally is the most sane Foreign Policy to come out of the White House in decades. Maybe he learned something from the Libya and Egypt policies.

    Of course, it we really want to let the entire region explode into war and chaos, we should support Jerusalem as the new Capitol of Israel. Bibi would love that!
    "I don't believe there should be any restrictions when it comes to firearms. None." Gary Johnson
    and
    "Every single figure on Mount Rushmore was a third party at one time or another, so third parties become major parties, and I think that the Libertarian Party will become the next major party." Gary Johnson





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    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    In an interview with the Atlantic, our community organizer blames the mess in Lybia on France and Great Brittian. It seems that the community organizer has a reason why HIS failures are someone else's fault. I guess that had he been sent there as a community organizer, it would not be such a bid mess.
    Sorry if I misunderstood.

    Franco did a great job of explaining things.
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Of course, it we really want to let the entire region explode into war and chaos..........
    It has..........

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    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    All of which is why our current policy towards ISIL makes so much sense!

    No matter how many American lives and how many billions the far right is willing to commit to the elimination of ISIL, it would never be ISIL's undoing. What Cruz and Rubio are advocating is dangerous to our National Security and would only make the situation that much worse!

    Our current policy is forcing the countries in the region to get more involved! They have long sat on their hands and let the USA do all of the dirty work which the far right in this country is more than willing to do. They accuse the current Administration of leading from behind which couldn't be further from the truth! The lasting solution to ISIL lays with the Sunnis who want peace. That we should support! But for us to attempt to do their job would only prolong any meaningful and lasting solution.
    Last edited by Franco; 03-11-2016 at 10:53 AM.
    "I don't believe there should be any restrictions when it comes to firearms. None." Gary Johnson
    and
    "Every single figure on Mount Rushmore was a third party at one time or another, so third parties become major parties, and I think that the Libertarian Party will become the next major party." Gary Johnson





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