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Thread: Opinions on different ways to teach retired guns.

  1. #1
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Default Opinions on different ways to teach retired guns.

    What is your method? When do you decide it time to teach this? Do you have an Incremental way to start?

    Thanks In advance,

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lucky Number Seven's Avatar
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    Single > retire part way to bird
    Single > retire immediately after send
    Single > retire immediately

    Double > retire part way to memory bird
    Double > retire immediately after send to memory bird
    Double > retire after dog is lined up for memory bird
    Double > retire when dog is returning from go bird
    Double > retire when dog is sent for go bird
    Double > retire immediately

    For a triple do the same progress as doubles but it lengthens as you add the 3rd bird.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Lucky Number Seven's Avatar
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    If dog is progressing fast you may be able to eliminate a few of the steps and not give such a crutch along the way. You can also use the method of teaching delayed triples and such to help introduce the concept also.

    I am not in anyway saying this is completely correct or the "standard" but in my mind and phases of what I have seen in our training group this type of progression works well.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Single, retire after dog leaves or is started to the bird. Gunner comes out and assist if a problem. Then build from there.
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    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    I didn't do any teaching. One day all the sudden the gun was retired.

    I didn't plan it this way, it just happened: The bird boy didn't understand the instructions and retired just like he had been doing for all the big dogs.

    I didn't notice until after I sent my dog. But she didn't notice either, so it all worked out.

    Edit: I did a lot of stand alones with her, though. Those are sort of like retired guns, so maybe that taught her the concept.
    Last edited by mitty; 01-23-2014 at 09:46 AM.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Number Seven View Post
    If dog is progressing fast you may be able to eliminate a few of the steps and not give such a crutch along the way. You can also use the method of teaching delayed triples and such to help introduce the concept also.

    I am not in anyway saying this is completely correct or the "standard" but in my mind and phases of what I have seen in our training group this type of progression works well.


    I like all of the above.
    I also throw a lot of marks with gunner not visible when the bird is thrown. I mostly train alone with stick men and quite often when doing singles I don't bother to put the stick men out. My dogs look out well enough with a watch que and will hear the shot from the winger and see the bird, but these are dogs that have already learned retireds.
    I start puppies without visible gunners. I teach the watch que and at 3 months old puppies start looking out to the field for their bird. At first I will use the beeper on the pro control to get their attention in the right direction. Beeper then will also double as a hey hey if pup needs help. I try to teach focus on the bird before focus on the gun station.

  7. #7
    Senior Member TonyLattuca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I didn't do any teaching. One day all the sudden the gun was retired.

    I didn't plan it this way, it just happened: The bird boy didn't understand the instructions and retired just like he had been doing for all the big dogs.

    I didn't notice until after I sent my dog. But she didn't notice either, so it all worked out.

    Edit: I did a lot of stand alones with her, though. Those are sort of like retired guns, so maybe that taught her the concept.
    X2 I do mostly stand alones and now I moved up to stand alone doubles and simple triples. I believe its helped his memory alot because it takes forever to walk out throw 2 or 3 birds then walk back to the line and then send.

  8. #8
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I appreciate the discussion using Dennis Voigts methods of training alone..

    So we understand terminology, here is Dennis explaining definitions.

    A stand alone you send receive the dog from where you throw the mark (you are standing alone). You then walk out to a new location and throw the next mark.

    A walk back you walk back to the line after throwing the mark then send and receive the dog.

    A send back you do a stand alone, send and receive the dog in the field, then send the dog back to the line (usually identified with a bucket or stake), then walk to another location for the next mark.

    As Wayne said, get the Dennis Voigt DVD and/or Retrievers ONLINE magazine.

    As Glen has described, Stand Alones, Send Backs and Walk Backs are all different. Each has different merits. All are valuable but the Stand Alone is the Bread and Butter!!!

    Although I coined the labels and have tried to educate on their uses, I did not invent these techniques. However, I have used each to advantage and have tried to develop them to their fullest. In the last issue of Retrievers ONLINE I described some Stand Alones that can really advance your dog. In the next issue, I will describe some Walk Backs that are really demanding.

    These procedures are simply ways to progress and refine your dog. They can help you a great deal when training alone but you must also train with other dogs, people, distractions, excitement and realistic scenarios. A duck hunter might get away with 75+% exclusively training of this type, a hunt tester with 50+ % and a field trialer with 30-40%. The latter case would be ONLY if really experienced. In fact, 85-90% of Amateurs will need Professionals or big league Amateur groups to achieve success.

    In my own situation, I currently train 3 months a year with an excellent Amateur group and superb grounds. The rest of the year when not hunting, I train 90% alone as described in my DVD and book and Retrievers ONLINE. I think that is really pushing it. In the past, when I was working full time, I had considerable success. It is harder today, at least, in field trials. But not impossible!!

    My dogs may be well trained but can suffer from lack of exposure year round to other dogs, the excitement, the distractions, the drag-back and new grounds but I guarantee we have a lot of fun and good times!! 9 field champions and 3 national wins balance out the failures and yes even a break in the first series in the last most recent National. another contender got caught in drag-back-these are things that you live with as an Amateur!!

    Pursue Stand Alones first and the later Walk backs and Send backs. I suggest that you strive for quality rather than quantity!!

    Cheers


    So, considering the above definitions, I can only envision using a "Walk Back" as a way to do a retired gun. To Me,, it is still a "Cold Turkey" approach.
    You place the dog at the line, walk out, throw the mark, walk back, send the dog..

    Is there a way, that those of you that train alone,ease into this concept?

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #9
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    One other clarification..

    I think "Stand Alones" and "Walking Singles" are very different.

    Stand alones, there are no BB's

    Walking Singles,, you have a BB or a helper throwing For you.

    I can see the way to "teach" the retired with a helper throwing for you, as Lucky Seven and Steve described, but what about training alone?

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #10
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    So Tony...

    You are doing a " Walk Back" to teach doubles,, and Triples correct?
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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