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Thread: Opinions on different ways to teach retired guns.

  1. #11
    Senior Member TonyLattuca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I appreciate the discussion using Dennis Voigts methods of training alone..

    So we understand terminology, here is Dennis explaining definitions.

    A stand alone you send receive the dog from where you throw the mark (you are standing alone). You then walk out to a new location and throw the next mark.

    A walk back you walk back to the line after throwing the mark then send and receive the dog.

    A send back you do a stand alone, send and receive the dog in the field, then send the dog back to the line (usually identified with a bucket or stake), then walk to another location for the next mark.

    As Wayne said, get the Dennis Voigt DVD and/or Retrievers ONLINE magazine.

    As Glen has described, Stand Alones, Send Backs and Walk Backs are all different. Each has different merits. All are valuable but the Stand Alone is the Bread and Butter!!!

    Although I coined the labels and have tried to educate on their uses, I did not invent these techniques. However, I have used each to advantage and have tried to develop them to their fullest. In the last issue of Retrievers ONLINE I described some Stand Alones that can really advance your dog. In the next issue, I will describe some Walk Backs that are really demanding.

    These procedures are simply ways to progress and refine your dog. They can help you a great deal when training alone but you must also train with other dogs, people, distractions, excitement and realistic scenarios. A duck hunter might get away with 75+% exclusively training of this type, a hunt tester with 50+ % and a field trialer with 30-40%. The latter case would be ONLY if really experienced. In fact, 85-90% of Amateurs will need Professionals or big league Amateur groups to achieve success.

    In my own situation, I currently train 3 months a year with an excellent Amateur group and superb grounds. The rest of the year when not hunting, I train 90% alone as described in my DVD and book and Retrievers ONLINE. I think that is really pushing it. In the past, when I was working full time, I had considerable success. It is harder today, at least, in field trials. But not impossible!!

    My dogs may be well trained but can suffer from lack of exposure year round to other dogs, the excitement, the distractions, the drag-back and new grounds but I guarantee we have a lot of fun and good times!! 9 field champions and 3 national wins balance out the failures and yes even a break in the first series in the last most recent National. another contender got caught in drag-back-these are things that you live with as an Amateur!!

    Pursue Stand Alones first and the later Walk backs and Send backs. I suggest that you strive for quality rather than quantity!!

    Cheers


    So, considering the above definitions, I can only envision using a "Walk Back" as a way to do a retired gun. To Me,, it is still a "Cold Turkey" approach.
    You place the dog at the line, walk out, throw the mark, walk back, send the dog..

    Is there a way, that those of you that train alone,ease into this concept?

    Gooser
    Gooser thanks for the definitions, I worded it wrong then. Im no expert by any means but I started out with stand alones then after I got my pup real steady I moved to easy walk backs then moved to harder single walk backs, then doubles and triples. My pups only 9 months and hes seen it since I got him since I used the hillman method and the fact that I train by myself 95% of the time. Hope this helps.

  2. #12
    Senior Member TonyLattuca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    So Tony...

    You are doing a " Walk Back" to teach doubles,, and Triples correct?
    Yes. Walk back

  3. #13
    Senior Member TonyLattuca's Avatar
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    Ill walk out with 2 or three bumpers after I find out how I want the double or triple and throw the first mark walk to the second throw it and so on. Then walk back to the line and send the dog.

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    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Thanks Tony.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  5. #15
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Mitty said:
    Edit: I did a lot of stand alones with her, though. Those are sort of like retired guns, so maybe that taught her the concept.

    Mitty,

    How are your stand alones like a retired,, or did you mean to say like Tony,, you walked Back to send the dog?

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #16
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    actually just did our first lesson on them monday. had the gunner throw then retire after release. then we did gunner throwns and i turne towards the side and threw a bumper 20-30 yards from the line while the gunner hid behind a tree. when he returned sent him. did 3 a piece started at 75 yards and worked our way up to 225. went fantastic

    so we moved up to multiple guns in the field singles (3) with one retired (150 yards) thrown first. using same "bumper toss and hide" technique. went excellent.

    so then we sat up another multiple guns in the field singles (3) with one retired (175 yards thrown right to left flat) but the retired mark being being picked up last and was thrown behind the middle gun (@125 yards thrown right to left flat). so kind of like a hip pocket single retired long gun i guess. smashed it


    sure i skipped some steps but as i saw how he progressed early on i got brave

  7. #17
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Mitty said:
    Edit: I did a lot of stand alones with her, though. Those are sort of like retired guns, so maybe that taught her the concept.

    Mitty,

    How are your stand alones like a retired,, or did you mean to say like Tony,, you walked Back to send the dog?

    Gooser
    I meant I sit dog, walk out, throw bumper(s), then walk back to dog and send.

    I trained almost totally alone, no launchers or bird boys, till my dog was over a year old.

    I can't remember how I started, probably tried to throw standard puppy marks on land with few factors or cover.

    Nowadays I do stand alone retired singles if I think she needs practice on retired guns. I walk out, throw, send dog, then hide. Sometimes I set up stickmen and do walking retired singles. I will take down the stickman at the station I am throwing from. Then after she has done that mark, I send her back to the line, put the stick man back, and move to the next station. Rinse repeat. I watch while she is running to make sure she does not break down, if she does I pop out and help. These are big dog FT marks relatively free of factors---the point is practicing retired guns and marking (or a particular training concept like running past the old fall). No factors, because if dog starts fading with the wind or running the road you have no way to handle.
    Last edited by mitty; 01-23-2014 at 01:47 PM.
    Renee P

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