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Thread: Treat training pros and cons

  1. #21
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    Pete is an excellent trainer and a gentleman. Much can be learned from him.

    Why not specifically state what you don't like about the video?
    Thanks George,,, I appreciate that. I think a lot of Colonel assessment is correct. But here is the riddle. I put half the time in training my dogs due to customers coming first,,but ALL of the started dogs I have sold have gotten great reviews,,they really like all the things they can do well at a very young age. SO My question is not so much what I am doing wrong ,but what is it i'm doing right that must be what is bringing the results. It appears to be hidden,,because even when I watch myself I think "what a goober"
    I have watched Steve's dog;s also and I will tell you there is A LOT he is doing right .
    Just a little tip on video's,,we all do it wrong. A few years back I got to watch some of the top trainers on film,,guess what they also did some things what they said not to do.

    pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  2. #22
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    I don't think this is a fair constructive statement. Usually people post to be helpful whether one agrees or not! That is the learning experience. You choose what to accept or not! Possibly less people will post their videos.JMHO

    I think if he told me why it sucked so bad then may be I can do better in the future if I actually agreed with his assessment.
    My wife shoots these youtube video's for me for 2 reasons.
    1 So customers can see where there dog is at in training.
    2 So buyers looking for started dogs can see what the dog is like. I only have a couple of video's of my personal dogs on there
    but sometimes I post these to give other people idea's. Why let them sit in the archives when someone can use them to amuse me. If I was a serious youtuber I would dress more professionally so I could step in dog poop with style.
    I like being critiqued over the internet.,,,,, well because for me its not only entertaining but people really do see things I can't.
    Pete

    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  3. #23
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    Steve,

    First off, well done on posting a video of yourself and inviting comments; not everyone has sufficient intestinal fortitude to do so.
    Thanks Col I appreciate your input but I do disagree in part.

    It may well be that treat / marker / clicker isn't for you anyway, you are 100% correct here. but right now you aren't giving yourself, Billy, or the method a fair shake. When you've given it a more intensive and practiced effort and judged the results as not worthwhile, by all means walk away. Like most simple skills, it's possible to fall into the trap of thinking that it's also easy, and approach things without really thinking them through or indeed measuring the outcomes. In your case I think you are falling between two stools; not doing the treat / marker / clicker thing quite right and not being comfortable with some of the possible effects anyway. Falling between two stools, I love that analogy. I realize I was not using the treat properly. My intention of the video was to point out what I feel are undesirable effects of treat training and in doing so I exaggerated the situation.

    Forgive me if what follows sound preachy and prescriptive it's all meant to be constructive and informative. So, some observations on what I see you doing, and where you might think it worthwhile to have a ponder...... No need to ask for forgiveness. I appreciate your point of view.

    Massive overuse of the voice both for commands and praise. In the first three minutes I counted 50 verbal "sits", and any number of "good boy", "attaboys" and so on. If the dog is being rewarded for compliance with a treat, reward him with a treat, all that verbal input is just so much redundant noise and actually devaluing your voice. Within that input I didn't see any actual use of a marker instantly followed by a treat. I agree sort of. At this stage to me voice commands and praise are very important and this is generally what I use instead of treats. I should not combine the two. Also at this level I don't see it as a massive over use of the voice. It is a tool I already have and don't need to carry it in a pouch on my belt. All the verbal sits is simply conditioning the pup to the command instead of giving the command and reinforcing it as I will later as the dog grows and progresses. As we progress and the pup understands what I want I will slowly eliminate the sit command down to just one sit. Remember this is the pups first lesson at this and as I said I exaggerated some things to get a response and hear different ideas on the method. Some of what I did wrong I wasn't thinking of at the time like have the pup come to me on here at the same time as teaching sit means sit. Also went waaaaay to long in this session. I plan to do more videos on this with Billy and another pup of the same age but without treats.

    When I treat a puppy for compliance, I regard that as the end of compliance. This isn't something determined by us trainers, it's decided by the dog. He doesn't have the mental ability to project forward along the lines of "I'll just sit still and then maybe I'll get a treat", all he knows is that a second ago he did indeed get a treat. So at this stage I wouldn't do as you are doing by making him sit for quite long periods almost as a test, so much as give the command then instantly mark and reward a good performance. Then let him walk a bit and repeat the exercise; that way he'll associate obeying the command with his treat which right now I don't believe he does. As Mary Lynn said, once he's got the idea, you can vary the delay in marking / treating. I disagree. He is passed this stage. He already knows that when he complies with the command he gets a treat. This is where my treat training usually ends. I use a treat to teach sit and that is it. What you say here goes completely against what I am starting to teach which is that it is not the pups decision when to end compliance it is mine. He may not have the mental ability to look forward and think if I sit still I will get a treat but he sure enough does have the mental ability to learn and understand what I am asking through repetition.

    By the fourth minute he was showing some confusion and a bit of avoidance behaviour; the lesson was going on too long for him. In these early days I cut it out at three minutes but have a few sessions each day. I don't see confusion or avoidance, well maybe a little confusion because I am combining my usual method with the treat thing and definitely doing it wrong but I don't see avoidance. I see the pup wanting to come to me which is a good thing but the opposite of what I m starting to teach here. This I believe is partially being caused by the treat thing. The treat is stronger than what I am trying to teach. Kinda like putting the wrong end of two magnets together. Bad on me

    Body language; all that walking around was redundant and not teaching him anything, it just added extra pressure he didn't understand and isn't ready for. At the same time your only cues to him were verbal, so he didn't respond well to "here". Give him some encouragement other than voice, and instantly reward him for compliance with a treat. Amongst all the "noise" another "good boy" isn't meaning anything. I think it's too early for "here" anyway, thats why when he fells uncomfortable, he comes in to you for reassurance. I either chuck the treat to the dog, or more usually walk up to him. Again I disagree. I am moving too fast on progression here but again exaggerated to make a point. Walking around is not redundant just jumping ahead a little 3 or 4 more lessons and he will be ready for it. When he didn't respond well to here I see that as him starting to understand what I am teaching, SIT MEANS SIT. I should not be having him come to here at the same time as teaching sit means sit.

    There is a lot more, but I don't want to drone on all night, I just hope I've given you food for thought, and a realisation that the subject is worth further study. Like I said simple isn't a synonym of easy! Good food for thought. Not only makes me think of other ways and methods but also makes me think of how counter productive I was within my own method in doing this to make a point. Point being treat training is not my cup of tea. I believe it has it's place on a limited basis and my be more beneficial in other venues but for what I do with my dogs I feel it is a distraction. Certainly I want the dog paying attention to me and understand what I want but I also want him to think and act on his own. Actually this little video is a very good example of how not to do things.

    Eug
    Hope fully future vidoes of this will be more informative but whatever the case will be done without treats. Again just not my cup of tea.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    I really appreciate both you guys posting the videos. As the others said great info and learning to be garnered. Keep them coming. Just wish I had someone to video us. Doing them myself a catastrophe sometimes. Thanks.
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA
    http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=83047
    HR Blackie 2 CGN, WCI
    Metras's Hashtag Mickey
    http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=83051



    "Knowing how important right timing is in accomplishing right actions"
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Hassman View Post
    I'm contemplating using treats to train my new puppy when it arrives this fall. What other good resources are out there to better understand this. The youtube video on "It's yer choice" is great. I remember seeing another one on hold but can't find it anymore.
    A great resource is here: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/library

    A great one to teach all the aspects of the formal, responsible retrieve is this one: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/CFVEX13MP02

    It is a great alternative to Force Fetching your dog. This video is very well produced and delivers information very efficiently and in the right order. It's by Michelle Pouillot (sp?) who has force fetched over 300 dogs in her career since the 1970s. She now uses marker training for it. My computer is about to die and I'm not near a plug, so will leave it there...

    one more thing - check out the other videos on the browse page. Lots of good ones, though you do have to pay for them. you can watch them instantly on your computer, however.

  6. #26
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    @ Steve:

    Remember this is the pups first lesson at this and as I said I exaggerated some things to get a response and hear different ideas on the method.

    Again I disagree. I am moving too fast on progression here but again exaggerated to make a point.

    Not only makes me think of other ways and methods but also makes me think of how counter productive I was within my own method in doing this to make a point. Point being treat training is not my cup of tea. I believe it has it's place on a limited basis and my be more beneficial in other venues but for what I do with my dogs I feel it is a distraction. Certainly I want the dog paying attention to me and understand what I want but I also want him to think and act on his own. Actually this little video is a very good example of how not to do things.

    I'm disappointed after reading your response to The Colonel. It comes across as if you didn't try to research treat/marker training at all, and were trying to do it wrong on purpose to prove your point that you think it doesn't work. You even said you exaggerated things in the video on purpose to prove your point. That type of action doesn't prove your point.

    Can you imagine what might have happened if you'd actually researched it, and really tried it? You may have been surprised.

  7. #27
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    I viewed both videos and was more impressed with the demeanor of the two trainers, calm, assertive and somewhat low keyed. Characteristics that are a real asset when training puppies. There is a trend, more buzz words, to do what is called raising puppies. I prefer to call it pre-basics and is very important the first four months or so of a puppies life. Treat training is of course one of the techniques. I use cut up little bits of hot dogs kept in plastic bag , treat training from about 7 or 8 weeks of age until about three months old. Starting out with sit and the final phase of heeling, with a treat for the sit. After the three month period, give or take a few weeks, we kinda go into a semi-formal obedience and use a tennis ball as a reward, throwing it while the pup is on lead after an exercise, encouraging a clean delivery.

    The only thing in my opinion, is the "overcooking" of treats, too many in Pete's case and perhaps throwing the treat, something I haven't done, but, never say never in dog. These two guys, in my opinion, would be excellent puppy raisers unless there is a anger management issue they are hiding. Past the pre-basics, would have to see their next level ,of course that would be basics, then view the product at the end of basics. Too many hyper, easily frustrated, angry type folks, handicapping the future of their dogs. Thanks for the videos.
    Earl Dillow

  8. #28
    Senior Member Willie Alderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    Pete is an excellent trainer and a gentleman.
    Pete is an excellent trainer...but a gentleman??? I've learned a lot from him, though it's been all in the field. You should see his table manners!

    I used treats (dog kibble, she was very food motivated) with Roxi when she was a pup and it definitely helped her understand the task at hand. Timing is everything! As she got older I phased out the treats completely. I'll definitely be treat training my next pup!
    ~Willie Alderson

    "Drake" Willey's Drake Seeker Supreme MH

    "Roxi" Alder Creeks Riparian Roxi

  9. #29
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
    @ Steve:

    Remember this is the pups first lesson at this and as I said I exaggerated some things to get a response and hear different ideas on the method.

    Again I disagree. I am moving too fast on progression here but again exaggerated to make a point.

    Not only makes me think of other ways and methods but also makes me think of how counter productive I was within my own method in doing this to make a point. Point being treat training is not my cup of tea. I believe it has it's place on a limited basis and my be more beneficial in other venues but for what I do with my dogs I feel it is a distraction. Certainly I want the dog paying attention to me and understand what I want but I also want him to think and act on his own. Actually this little video is a very good example of how not to do things.

    I'm disappointed after reading your response to The Colonel. It comes across as if you didn't try to research treat/marker training at all, and were trying to do it wrong on purpose to prove your point that you think it doesn't work. You even said you exaggerated things in the video on purpose to prove your point. That type of action doesn't prove your point.

    Can you imagine what might have happened if you'd actually researched it, and really tried it? You may have been surprised.

    I understand what you are saying and apologize because it does sound that way but I assure you that is not the way it is meant. The exaggeration point was to show what I perceive as bad habits that arise from treat training. I realize if done right some of this can be avoided but still are undesirable traits TO ME. I just feel that treat training is unnecessary and just ads to a plate that is already waaay full.
    I have no problem with treat training. If you want to do it awesome just not my cup of tea, I prefer coffee.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    A great resource is here: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/library

    A great one to teach all the aspects of the formal, responsible retrieve is this one: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/CFVEX13MP02

    It is a great alternative to Force Fetching your dog. This video is very well produced and delivers information very efficiently and in the right order. It's by Michelle Pouillot (sp?) who has force fetched over 300 dogs in her career since the 1970s. She now uses marker training for it. My computer is about to die and I'm not near a plug, so will leave it there...

    one more thing - check out the other videos on the browse page. Lots of good ones, though you do have to pay for them. you can watch them instantly on your computer, however.
    Thanks Jennifer. Here is another link for more training. Lori Jolly E training. She has a number of E lessons if this is the approach you are interested in.!

    http://www.e-trainingfordogs.com/201...inning-basics/


    http://www.e-trainingfordogs.com/201...endable-fetch/
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA
    http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=83047
    HR Blackie 2 CGN, WCI
    Metras's Hashtag Mickey
    http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=83051



    "Knowing how important right timing is in accomplishing right actions"
    Uncle Ray

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