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Thread: Treat training pros and cons

  1. #51
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    also Mary Lynn at the end of that video I threw in what I thought you were asking on the other thread where the gentilman ( sorry don't know his name) is holding up a bumper and talking about sit. Tomarro I will send you a flattie video on that other thread, which I think will answer your question.
    Pete
    Okay, yes Pete. Those were great stand alones and like you say you could take it one step further to tech. I train most of the time myself so I become very creative! Thanks for posting.
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  2. #52
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    You can also throw a bunch of down the shore marks when the weather gets better and handle your dog without breaking momentum. You will still have to finish that exercise with the dog next to you,,,but it puts you a head of the game.

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  3. #53
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    I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
    when coming out of water. For example:
    Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
    Note that after a huge time investment, the dog still drops the bumper on return from swimming at 8:33 in the video! I don't have a problem with clicker training, I don't
    think it is as effective as force fetching for reliable bird handling, especially coming out of water hundreds of meters from the handler.

    Treats are used by most agility trainers, even very advanced agility dogs!

  4. #54
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissSkeeter View Post
    I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
    when coming out of water. For example:
    Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
    Note that after a huge time investment, the dog still drops the bumper on return from swimming at 8:33 in the video! I don't have a problem with clicker training, I don't
    think it is as effective as force fetching for reliable bird handling, especially coming out of water hundreds of meters from the handler.

    Treats are used by most agility trainers, even very advanced agility dogs!
    I would not use treats on my older guy in agility b/c the jumps would mean nothing to him as he was food driven!He would run after me or whoever had treats. He even jumped out of the ring on a course, ate someones muffin and jumped back in to continue. The lady whose muffin he ate was mad. The judge and were laughing! A food driven dog!!
    You have to read your dog on how far you want to go with him/her and in what venue you want to run them in. You also have the choice to train your dog the way you feel best to get where you are going. There is nothing wrong with clicker training or the FF and CC method, but you choose what is best for you. JMHO
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissSkeeter View Post
    I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
    when coming out of water. For example:
    Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
    Note that after a huge time investment, the dog still drops the bumper on return from swimming at 8:33 in the video! I don't have a problem with clicker training, I don't
    think it is as effective as force fetching for reliable bird handling, especially coming out of water hundreds of meters from the handler.

    Treats are used by most agility trainers, even very advanced agility dogs!
    On your video the owner did not put the bumper in the dog`s mouth after each retrieve to reinforce what was expected. I would not recall a dog off the mark while learning to retrieve and building drive. She is definitely over treating to reinforce bad work. She should do variable treating once the dog had gotten the idea, reinforcing correct method. Owner admits she is doing too many criteria for the dog. And over my dead body will I go out and retrieve to show the dog drive. I had better stop now as I think I am too critical. JMO Thank you for posting very interesting.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member big gunner's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity I wonder how many FC's or AFC's were food trained. I know in the Competitive obedience game almost all are.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissSkeeter View Post
    I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
    when coming out of water. For example:
    Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
    Note that after a huge time investment, the dog still drops the bumper on return from swimming at 8:33 in the video! I don't have a problem with clicker training, I don't
    think it is as effective as force fetching for reliable bird handling, especially coming out of water hundreds of meters from the handler.

    Treats are used by most agility trainers, even very advanced agility dogs!
    That is one dog.

    My dog was clicker trained and does not drop bird or bumper coming out of the water. In fact, I have two clicker trained goldens who don't drop coming out of water. One is a show bred, 4 yr old and one is a field bred dog. The young one turns 2 next week and got two senior passes when she was 18 months old.

    There are many clicker trained retrievers who don't drop coming out of water. One notable one lives on the east coast and has an SH title, a few Master passes and several Jams in the Qualifying stakes.
    Last edited by Jennifer Henion; 02-02-2014 at 10:01 AM.

  8. #58
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    Default "Force-Free Fetch Training: No More Ear Pinch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    I would not use treats on my older guy in agility b/c the jumps would mean nothing to him as he was food driven!He would run after me or whoever had treats. He even jumped out of the ring on a course, ate someones muffin and jumped back in to continue. The lady whose muffin he ate was mad. The judge and were laughing! A food driven dog!!
    You have to read your dog on how far you want to go with him/her and in what venue you want to run them in. You also have the choice to train your dog the way you feel best to get where you are going. There is nothing wrong with clicker training or the FF and CC method, but you choose what is best for you. JMHO
    Hi Mary,

    I was trying to say that just like most advanced competitive retrievers are trained using a Carr-based system, most advanced competetive agility dogs are trained using a treat reward system...there are definitely exceptions. The agility training and retreiver training cultures are very different from that perspective.

    I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake when coming out of water.
    Here is another video of a nice flatcoat retriever taught hold with click-treat:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ48pPepj4k
    Yet the first thing the retriever does when it gets to the shoreline is drop the bumper:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2JmqP2Zscw

    Jennifer, I'm not saying it can't be done...I'm saying I have yet to see it on a video where the retriever reliable holds at a distance after leaving water...from my perspective the videos "Clicker Training A Bird Dog Retrieve" and "Force-Free Fetch Training: No More Ear Pinch" show
    me that after a considerable investment of training time the result was a retriever that was unreliable at hold when leaving the water.
    Both trainers in these 2 videos seem to be pretty good trainers from my perspective...in my opinion it is much more challenging to have a retriever that reliably holds under all conditions using positive methods compared to conventional force-fetch.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissSkeeter View Post
    Jennifer, I'm not saying it can't be done...I'm saying I have yet to see it on a video where the retriever reliable holds at a distance after leaving water...from my perspective the videos "Clicker Training A Bird Dog Retrieve" and "Force-Free Fetch Training: No More Ear Pinch" show
    me that after a considerable investment of training time the result was a retriever that was unreliable at hold when leaving the water.
    Both trainers in these 2 videos seem to be pretty good trainers from my perspective...in my opinion it is much more challenging to have a retriever that reliably holds under all conditions using positive methods compared to conventional force-fetch.
    Frankly, I think both methods are challenging and take some skill. To me, the force fetch technique was difficult. For many, it is easy. For me, clicker training it was easy, but to many, it is difficult. Both methods require a sequential process, some planning, some timing and an ability to read the dog and change things up to match the particular dog. In my opinion, it all boils down to which set of tools and steps appeal to the individual trainer.

    Whichever method a person uses, you will have to address new situations like holding when coming out of the water. Or holding wet soggy old birds vs a bumper etc etc.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Frankly, I think both methods are challenging and take some skill. To me, the force fetch technique was difficult. For many, it is easy. For me, clicker training it was easy, but to many, it is difficult. Both methods require a sequential process, some planning, some timing and an ability to read the dog and change things up to match the particular dog. In my opinion, it all boils down to which set of tools and steps appeal to the individual trainer.

    Whichever method a person uses, you will have to address new situations like holding when coming out of the water. Or holding wet soggy old birds vs a bumper etc etc.
    Jennifer good explanation! ML
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