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Thread: AKC hunt test limit dogs per handler?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    All of this discussion is missing the point. The problem is simply the disappearance of the owner/handler. These individuals are the marshals, shooters, equipment guys, cooks and general gophers that keep the test moving. They are the people you call if you need a 4 wheeler, test dog, set up dog, pick up dog, extra equipment or anything else. They show up early and stay late. Simply stated, they know the game & are passionate about it.

    In my area you can count the 1-2 dog amateurs on 1 hand with fingers left over still playing in the 3rd series of most Master tests. IMHO the tests are becoming tighter and more technical. Very difficult to earn a MH without access to technical water.

    Why do we have pros running 20+ dogs?
    #1: Money. It is cheaper to put a dog on someone's truck & split expenses. Covering gas, hotel and meals on a long trip makes handling fees with a pro a bargain.
    #2: Success rates. A pro running 20+ dogs will get a feel for the series. His first dogs might not get that benefit but I guarantee his later dogs will.
    #3: Knowledge: your average owner running 1 or 2 dogs will take a lifetime to learn what a pro learns in one season training & running a truck load of dogs.
    #4: Time. Most amateurs do not have the time needed to train a dog to the higher levels.

    This is in no way a rant against pros. Most are the very picture of the word "professional"! Without them most clubs would disappear into bankruptcy within a year.

    My point would be to focus on what can be done to encourage the owner/handler.
    #1: Mentor: we all have something to offer. Train with these newcomers. The sharing of knowledge, equipment & grounds is a huge help to someone starting out.
    #2: Demonstrate. Most people have no idea what our dogs are capable of doing. The first time I saw a dog run a true blind retrieve, I knew I would someday own such an animal.
    #3: As a club member push for more training days. Advertise them and make them open to all,
    #4: Encourage. We have all crashed & burned at a test or trial. I don't remember who congratulated me when my dogs succeeded. However I remember every word of a conversation when my dog failed. It was my first hunt test dog & 157 whistles to pick up the Seasoned memory bird was a few too many. I left the line totally humiliated & ready to quit the game. A few kind words from a nice lady to the effect that most had experienced the same thing gave me the courage to come back Sunday. Failed that one too. Trained harder & passed the next ones. That lady was a pro.

    Just my thoughts
    Nice post

  2. #122
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Tidewater Retriever Club, VA. MN club. 60 dog master running end of march. Full. No more than 5 dogs per any handler.

    What do we do?
    Run Neuse River the next weekend. 120 dog limit and only 12 entries so far. Or keep your eye on Fall Line the same weekend with a 120 dog limit that is not open for entries yet (although it will likely fill up).

    The early HTs tend to fill up around here, especially with a 60 dog limit held by a good club on good grounds. However, there are always others.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    Run Neuse River the next weekend. 120 dog limit and only 12 entries so far. Or keep your eye on Fall Line the same weekend with a 120 dog limit that is not open for entries yet (although it will likely fill up).

    The early HTs tend to fill up around here, especially with a 60 dog limit held by a good club on good grounds. However, there are always others.
    I would think the earlier an Open the better. I see most clubs are exercising a Limit. Smart.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    All of this discussion is missing the point. The problem is simply the disappearance of the owner/handler. These individuals are the marshals, shooters, equipment guys, cooks and general gophers that keep the test moving. They are the people you call if you need a 4 wheeler, test dog, set up dog, pick up dog, extra equipment or anything else. They show up early and stay late. Simply stated, they know the game & are passionate about it.

    In my area you can count the 1-2 dog amateurs on 1 hand with fingers left over still playing in the 3rd series of most Master tests. IMHO the tests are becoming tighter and more technical. Very difficult to earn a MH without access to technical water.

    Why do we have pros running 20+ dogs?
    #1: Money. It is cheaper to put a dog on someone's truck & split expenses. Covering gas, hotel and meals on a long trip makes handling fees with a pro a bargain.
    #2: Success rates. A pro running 20+ dogs will get a feel for the series. His first dogs might not get that benefit but I guarantee his later dogs will.
    #3: Knowledge: your average owner running 1 or 2 dogs will take a lifetime to learn what a pro learns in one season training & running a truck load of dogs.
    #4: Time. Most amateurs do not have the time needed to train a dog to the higher levels.

    This is in no way a rant against pros. Most are the very picture of the word "professional"! Without them most clubs would disappear into bankruptcy within a year.

    My point would be to focus on what can be done to encourage the owner/handler.
    #1: Mentor: we all have something to offer. Train with these newcomers. The sharing of knowledge, equipment & grounds is a huge help to someone starting out.
    #2: Demonstrate. Most people have no idea what our dogs are capable of doing. The first time I saw a dog run a true blind retrieve, I knew I would someday own such an animal.
    #3: As a club member push for more training days. Advertise them and make them open to all,
    #4: Encourage. We have all crashed & burned at a test or trial. I don't remember who congratulated me when my dogs succeeded. However I remember every word of a conversation when my dog failed. It was my first hunt test dog & 157 whistles to pick up the Seasoned memory bird was a few too many. I left the line totally humiliated & ready to quit the game. A few kind words from a nice lady to the effect that most had experienced the same thing gave me the courage to come back Sunday. Failed that one too. Trained harder & passed the next ones. That lady was a pro.

    Just my thoughts
    You hit the nail right on the head...

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Tidewater Retriever Club, VA. MN club. 60 dog master running end of march. Full. No more than 5 dogs per any handler.

    What do we do?
    There needs to be conditions on placed on clubs wishing to have a limited entry: ie they must apply and publish the limited a year in advance and clubs holding a limited maintain their date but lose or have their restrictive covenant decreased.

    JMO

    tim
    You order a Lab; ask a Golden; but negotiate with a Chesapeake!

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Carrion View Post
    There needs to be conditions on placed on clubs wishing to have a limited entry: ie they must apply and publish the limited a year in advance and clubs holding a limited maintain their date but lose or have their restrictive covenant decreased.

    JMO

    tim
    Tim - I don't follow?
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  7. #127
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    I would think the earlier an Open the better. I see most clubs are exercising a Limit. Smart.
    I don't see any downside for a club to limiting the entries. Coming up with judges is hard enough. Coming up with an extra pair at the last minute because you were surprised by the entries (like happened last time the MN was close by) is really tough.

    Most clubs who limit to 60 around here will fill up and quickly. At 120, it takes longer, but can still surprise many folks. The issues on our circuit, outside of MN, seems to occur either early in the season, when a lot of folks plan to run one on the way back up north or late in the Fall season when there is not much else going on--that is when we get 120 dog opens in FTs as well. A double master or a OHQ tends to add entries as well. We don't often have, as you saw on the tidewater, pros with huge entries that folks seem to experience elsewhere. Some clubs even start calling pros to get one or two to bring some dogs.

    There have been some pretty good ideas here on making sure everyone gets a shot, but I don't like any of them that single out the pros.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Carrion View Post
    There needs to be conditions on placed on clubs wishing to have a limited entry: ie they must apply and publish the limited a year in advance and clubs holding a limited maintain their date but lose or have their restrictive covenant decreased.

    JMO

    tim
    It is simply not feasible to have the HT approved a year in advance for most clubs. Look how many are on EE now that are within a few months and not open for entries and don't have all the judges. As far as allowing other HTs that same date for clubs that limit, it probably wouldn't be bad for the clubs which have to limit at 60, but a club that limits at 120 shouldn't be penalized, IMO.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    I don't see any downside for a club to limiting the entries. Coming up with judges is hard enough. Coming up with an extra pair at the last minute because you were surprised by the entries (like happened last time the MN was close by) is really tough.

    Most clubs who limit to 60 around here will fill up and quickly. At 120, it takes longer, but can still surprise many folks. The issues on our circuit, outside of MN, seems to occur either early in the season, when a lot of folks plan to run one on the way back up north or late in the Fall season when there is not much else going on--that is when we get 120 dog opens in FTs as well. A double master or a OHQ tends to add entries as well. We don't often have, as you saw on the tidewater, pros with huge entries that folks seem to experience elsewhere. Some clubs even start calling pros to get one or two to bring some dogs.

    There have been some pretty good ideas here on making sure everyone gets a shot, but I don't like any of them that single out the pros.
    Agreed on all points.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  10. #130
    Senior Member Lady Duck Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    All of this discussion is missing the point. The problem is simply the disappearance of the owner/handler. These individuals are the marshals, shooters, equipment guys, cooks and general gophers that keep the test moving. They are the people you call if you need a 4 wheeler, test dog, set up dog, pick up dog, extra equipment or anything else. They show up early and stay late. Simply stated, they know the game & are passionate about it.

    In my area you can count the 1-2 dog amateurs on 1 hand with fingers left over still playing in the 3rd series of most Master tests. IMHO the tests are becoming tighter and more technical. Very difficult to earn a MH without access to technical water.

    Why do we have pros running 20+ dogs?
    #1: Money. It is cheaper to put a dog on someone's truck & split expenses. Covering gas, hotel and meals on a long trip makes handling fees with a pro a bargain.
    #2: Success rates. A pro running 20+ dogs will get a feel for the series. His first dogs might not get that benefit but I guarantee his later dogs will.
    #3: Knowledge: your average owner running 1 or 2 dogs will take a lifetime to learn what a pro learns in one season training & running a truck load of dogs.
    #4: Time. Most amateurs do not have the time needed to train a dog to the higher levels.

    This is in no way a rant against pros. Most are the very picture of the word "professional"! Without them most clubs would disappear into bankruptcy within a year.

    My point would be to focus on what can be done to encourage the owner/handler.
    #1: Mentor: we all have something to offer. Train with these newcomers. The sharing of knowledge, equipment & grounds is a huge help to someone starting out.
    #2: Demonstrate. Most people have no idea what our dogs are capable of doing. The first time I saw a dog run a true blind retrieve, I knew I would someday own such an animal.
    #3: As a club member push for more training days. Advertise them and make them open to all,
    #4: Encourage. We have all crashed & burned at a test or trial. I don't remember who congratulated me when my dogs succeeded. However I remember every word of a conversation when my dog failed. It was my first hunt test dog & 157 whistles to pick up the Seasoned memory bird was a few too many. I left the line totally humiliated & ready to quit the game. A few kind words from a nice lady to the effect that most had experienced the same thing gave me the courage to come back Sunday. Failed that one too. Trained harder & passed the next ones. That lady was a pro.

    Just my thoughts
    Excellent, well thought out post!

    Our club, Bryan-College Station Retriever Club, was planning to again offer our test as unlimited this spring, when we were alertedto the fact that a conflicting test in Louisiana had to cancel due to losing their grounds. This, on top of the fact that we have lost 5 active members to death in the past year and a half, was setting us up for "The Perfect Storm" in the hunt test world. We usually run 3 big master flights as well as big Junior and Senior flights as well and feel confident about handling big numbers since we hire Aggie Corps members to work as bird technicians, but with fewer members to fill the key management rolls plus no conflicting event, we chose to set up for our 3 masters, 2 senior flights and junior on both days. Test is first weekend in March.

    We opened on a Friday Morning and had filled all 3 Master flights by Sunday afternoon.

    We need people who play the game to be active in helping to put the events on. If a Pro is running a truck load of dogs for his/her clients, they do not gave time to help, I think they should encourage their clients to step up and get involved. Without volunteers the game collapses and we are beginning to see this happening.

    We are losing active people, not seeing replacements in sufficient numbers. Our judges are being overworked and new judges are not being made.

    What is the answer? I don't know but if you want the game to continue, whether you have a pro train and run your dog or not......you need to get actively involved with a club AND volunteer to help at every event you go to.
    Last edited by Lady Duck Hunter; 02-03-2014 at 09:21 AM.
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