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AKC hunt test limit dogs per handler?

34K views 157 replies 46 participants last post by  caryalsobrook 
#1 ·
Can a club holding an AKC hunt test limit dogs per handler?

Does it matter if the club is a member of Master National Club?

Thanks!
 
#4 ·
The Pros probably would and should tell everyone where to stick it. We already have the SPCA, Peta, the EPA and the PTA getting us in their sites, we certainly don't need any negative actions from within. There are several reasons why this would be negative and to get the ball rolling one would be trainers would have to go up on training fees and handling fees for them to be able to haul our dogs all over the country for us.
 
#7 · (Edited)
HRC does it, 12 or 8 dogs per handler (club choice), prevents one person from monopolizing a limited stake. However I've never heard of AKC doing it, I doubt there is a rule either way. I'd bet it would be like the Master stake limit rule, not a ruling until some club pushed for it. I could see benefits for a club that doesn't want an entire flight filled by a single handler. A Pro could still run the same number of dogs, would just have to have another handler handle the other dogs, which would make things run much faster. Or a pro would have to pick which dog he wanted to run, one would assume the better prepared ones ;). Negative might lose $$$ as many pros won't make the trip for a few dogs. However seems like it should be a club choice; they are the ones running the test, they are the ones begging for workers, and the ones throwing the birds. If they'd rather throw birds for 15 different handlers (some of who might help with the test) rather than the same one over and over (who can't). Why shouldn't it be their choice, it's their test, They could always choose to not put one on, or GASP switch to HRC ;)

If a club wanted it they could probably petition for it; Another option to discuss would be an O/H Hunt test, they do it in FT so there is already precedence.

Side-note; In recent years I might be a tad guilty of determining whether I'm going to go to a test to help or run, based on how many pro dogs; I will have serve, or have to wait for. I'm sure I'm a terrible person but this is my time off, I get to decide how I spend it ;).
 
#8 ·
I suspect the question is in a similar vein to the one asked last summer about pro filling many of the spots of a limited (60) Master and then cancelling or not showing up as happened in MN and NY on the same weekend.
 
#10 ·
You learn something every day ! Which year did the MNRC limit pro handled entries?

Calling you out on this one and i am saying you got it very wrong

Going now to get the popcorn

To answer the op question : entries are not
limited except that a club my limit master level entries to 60, 90,120,180 or 240.

Thinking I know this
Dk
 
#11 ·
You can't limit number of dogs one hander can enter. If your club wasn't a master nation club member, I think your enters would be a lot smaller.
The last hunt test our club had 3 pro had all the dogs. It's a double edge sword, need pro for money, need the amateurs for the help. I was unable to get my dog entered, so I worked without running a dog.
 
#32 ·
I was unable to get my dog entered, so I worked without running a dog.
This is very noble, a true club member (puts the needs of the group above their own); But question for the whole group; How many tests, How many Sat & Sun are you gonna give up to volunteer and not even get to run your dog? Clubs are give and take organizations; but it is an exchange; one can only give for so long..before you get burned out..this is true even when you get the benefit of running your dog. To keep helping at a few tests and never run, one might be thinking of changing hobbies ;).
 
#12 ·
I know that there were three HT that I had planned to run last year that when I checked before work, entries weren't open, when I checked after work entries were closed. In both cases, one a 60 dog in which one pro had over half, and another 120 that three had all but a handful, that were club members....... I don't know what the answer is, but not letting ams run dogs will eventually catch up to the sport........ Loss of judge pool.

Would it be possible to at least publish when entries will open to give everyone the same info. I can't sit at a computer all day, can't even respond to a text alert, but if I knew entries were to open at such and such time I could make it work
 
#14 ·
I know that there were three HT that I had planned to run last year that when I checked before work, entries weren't open, when I checked after work entries were closed. In both cases, one a 60 dog in which one pro had over half, and another 120 that three had all but a handful, that were club members.......

I think the pro call one another when they see a hunt test open for entries.

A question I had, will entry express email people when a hunt test has been open for entries?
 
#13 ·
That is a problem with limiting entries is that the pros can get majority of the dogs running. If ams can't run then they will quit working and judging and the sport dies. There needs to be a balance somewhere to keep amateurs in it.

I don't know what the answer is though.

Russell
 
#15 ·
From last year a couple months ahead of the MN.

Not in an effort to diminish personal pain or situation but from a policy perspective on limits, the following are test dates and entry status. I did not carve out MN clubs so we can assume the data is a little slanted. However, not all need to run under MN clubs to title a MH dog.

Tests open for entry through 09/13 show:

14 Masters with limits not full
5 Masters with limits full

The only full tests have 60 dog limits

The open limited tests have 90 or 180 dog limits

Seems to me the issue is the smaller MN club that has grounds or accommodation issues to begin with.

So is the 'policy' the issue?
 
#17 ·
I had my dog with Dave Ward and she had just finished her MH. He said he was going to quit HT and switch to FT because the Master National was implementing a four-dog limit per handler. Scarlett died in 2011 just shy of 17 years old and she finished her MH at 4 so it was a few years ago.

Like I said they TRIED and it backfired.

Meredith
 
#18 ·
What did Dave Ward think he was going to qualify all his dogs for The National Field Trial ?? Oh Yeah!
 
#19 ·
Does it matter if the club is a member of Master National Club?

An AKC Club that is a member of the Master National Club (requires a separate fee to MN from the club) will have the dogs passing their club's Master Test qualify towards the total number of Master Passes that dog requires to be invited to the MN. If a club is not a MN Club Member, a Master Pass at that club's test will only count towards an AKC Master title and not towards the total number of Master passes required for a MN invite.
 
#85 ·
right on !!
 
#22 ·
Our club does not sponsorMaster National and the entries are fine and we don't have accommodate the pros going to other stakes. As a person who is working the test entries are much more manageable. And I get to enter my dogs and run them. It is a real amateur hunt test. Yes few pros come but real amateur handlers and trainers run.
 
#23 ·
This thread has taken a turn to a different subject and that is the limited master entries and pros taking all the entries.

My personal opinion is that some clubs do appear to align entries. How else do you explain an event filling in minutes/ hours after opening. IMHO this is an unintended issue from the limiting entries. In the end i believe this type of conduct is detrimental to the sport as people vote/ support with their feet.

We dont use pro trainers for our ht efforts however we interact with a host of pro trainers. The above post indicate the pros enter the dogs. That may be but i dont know a single pro that enters client dogs. It is a cash flow issue. The pros are complaining about the need to call clients once an event opens Some get in and some dont and then conflict happens.
Consider being part of the solution , volunteer to work, judge and help and be part of the solution
Dk
 
#24 ·
Just a curiosity question Moscowitz. What are your entrie numbers for the past couple of years for all levels? PM if you refer.
 
#25 ·
I was unable to get my dog in my home clubs' master last fall and worked the test grumbling... felt like I was subsidizing.. two pros put 48 dogs in our 60 dog master.... I wasn't the only one in that position...
opening up for more dogs makes for even more work and I would imagine we are going to lose even more help.

I ran a test last year where the club was not a master national club.. entries seemed fine and it was a lot more enjoyable with all the amateurs sitting around talking and applauding for the dogs that were running. I will go back to their test.

I am on the board of my home club and I am ready to vote that we no longer be a master national club.
 
#26 ·
Several States open their hunting seasons first to in-state hunters and later to non-residents. A possible solution might be to open up HT entries for a period of time such as 24 or 48 hours to amateurs first.

I realize that problems such as entries listing a pro or amateur as handler or where the amateur enters for the pro, and then the pro runs the dog.

Look at the HTs in Florida in the next few weeks. Even with 120 dog limits, they filled up in no time.

John


PS Nice to see you posting again Greg!
 
#27 ·
Dave, there are pros that enter there client dogs, how else would the same pro have 20 plus dogs listed consequetively when they are listed in order of entry..... That is one click of the mouse. Submit. Onto a credit card collect from client. No cash flow issue.
 
#28 ·
Some pros enter the dogs and are reimbursed by the client. Some pros have the client enter, so they don't have to deal with it. Some sometimes do both, depending on the situation.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Well If they don't allow limited dog per handler, the only way many clubs will keep functioning is too lose MN affiliation, (helpers will not keep volunteering at tests where they can't run their own dog). MN looses too many affiliations; that people can't qualify for the MN; perhaps they do something about it. Of course you might be putting a hindrance on your club members who might actually want to take their dogs to the MN, so I guess it will depend on the make up of your club, if most have MN as the years goal keep MN, if most just want to run their dog loose it. Might be an issue when those club members that want the MN can't get in their own test, still It is a club member on the board that finally Finalizes the test, so phone call and e-mails could go out to members on when that might be ;).

Other Idea why not truly commercialize HT's? Hire workers figure 90 dog @ ($80) = $7200, run a double masters = 14,400 this is without JH or SH entries. Master stake = 3 stations usually 4-5 helper including live gunners ($100-200) A DAY = 500-$1000, leaving $6000 to play with. I've never had anything close to $6000 to play with yet the tests still get done, the club can pay it's bills, sometimes might even make a bit.

Then You don't need club members to come help, you just need an organizer and you don't care who run which dogs; Of course this might against spirit of having a club and comradery thing. But where does that really come in when your after qualifications and titles ;)
 
#33 ·
Other expenses: catalogs, ribbons, placement awards, birds (huge expense), permits, port-a-lets, food/ice/water/drinks, AKC fees, judge's hotels, judge's meals, judge's travel expenses, entry refunds. I may have missed a few but you get the idea. It's nowhere near as easy as stated in the above post.
 
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