The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 30

Thread: handler retriever relationship: master-slave versus coach althlete

  1. #1

    Default handler retriever relationship: master-slave versus coach althlete

    I posted this on another forum, but I post it here also because I think sometimes newbies get focuses on methods and drills and don't consider in every training session the attitude of their dog or their training relationship to the dog.

    I don't understand why some trainers have dry passionless relationship with their dog and seem to have a master-slave mentality instead of a coach-athlete mentality.

    Here is an example with force to pile:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6qtKMyM26g
    I think this trainer makes fundamental mistakes:
    repeating commands may become background noise:
    "sit,sit,sit,sit!" "come here, come here,heel" "here, here, comeon"
    the first three sits don't count in the dogs mind...don't repeat commands...

    "she does a little shopping at the pile"
    why not clean that up first and keep the learning simple and focused rather than tolerating this?

    "hold, hold", "hold,"hold","drop","no"
    why not clean this up with thorough force-fetching before advancing to a new concept.

    he does not read his dog and recognize the dog's attitude deteriorates... note the dogs attitude at the start versus the end of the session, especially on the return because she fears what is going on

    the dog loops away from the handler on the first return,loops around the handler on the second return showing she is afraid of the handler in this master-slave relationship

    From my perspective, this master-slave relationship is sad and he treats the dog like a robot rather than an intelligent animal.

    Now contrast that video with this force-to-pile session :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_i2NYvk ... D97E7CE793

    The handler still shows at least 1 mistake (dog has not been thoroughly force fetched),but the retriever has a much better attitude...in the long run I think this is key.

    Which dog and trainer seems more likely to look forward to training the next day?

    Which relationship (master-slave or coach athlete) will ultimately be better at handler communication on check down birds, fine lining, etc?

    I view human-dog relationships more of a continuum from master-slave to coach-athlete, and most of the best trainers that I know are more towards the coach-athlete type of relationship.



  2. #2
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    1,179

    Default

    I would say more



    drill sergeant-jarhead.


    MG

  3. #3
    Senior Member Lonnie Spann's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    616

    Default

    Me and my dogs have a warden/prisoner relationship. They are serving a life sentence with hard labor

    Lonnie Spann
    DISCLAIMER: The above post is the opinionated and biased view of your's truly, Lonnie Spann, and is in no way intended to reflect the opinions or views of the unfortunate individuals named below who just happen to be doomed with guilt by association.

    Member of CAHRC and North AL HRC. I train with AND AM FRIENDS WITH: Fishduck, Laidback, Splash_Em, RF2, Drake2014, Claimsadj, Hooked on Quackers, RookieTrainer and Roseberry.

    HRCH Spann's Quacker Jack "Jack" 500 Pt. Club (New & IMPROVED jacket).

  4. #4
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    1,179

    Default

    Or, if it's a British dog,



    more sergeant major-squaddie.

    Or, if they're wearing a "balaclava"



    SAS-commando...

    MG

  5. #5
    Senior Member brian breuer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Minot, ND
    Posts
    508

    Default

    Neither fits. Yes you want a positive attitude and a relaxed dog. They perform better and I feel better about it and we both have more fun. Simple as that, but your analogies are horrible. Dogs are dogs, people are people. I'm not a pet parent, nor a pet coach. I own the animal.

    And as its owner, I chose that it should have its testicles removed, eat when and what I tell give it, and sleep on the bed.

  6. #6
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,339

    Default

    I dont think the first Vid is drill sargent like at all!! In Fact,, Quite opposite. More of a Nanny,, and a Nagger!

    One command ,,One respose,, is the standard isnt it?

    I would TRY not to repete commands,, and the derned dog BETTER comply!

    I mean really,, isnt FORCE to pile ,,, SIT to pile,,,all about enforcement of commands and standards??

    You have alread taught the dog the commands in Obedience.. He knows them.. He has been collar conditioned to those commands right?
    He has been FORCED FETCHED right?? He understands FORCE!!

    NOW,, we go to the application of the force aspect of training.. The PRESSURE part..

    The trainer in the first Vid, IMHO,, needs to be MORE sargent like,, in a CALM ,,quiet,, way,, and strictly enforce the commands given.

    In Another thread,, a question asked about behaviors experienced when sending from your side...

    I think the first VID shows why its a good idea to send from front finish, after the initial throw to mark the back pile.
    The dog then just focuses on being cast to the back pile,, occationally working through FORCE to that pile, with no flaring on the way, and a straight return to a position directly in front of you , where the dogs focus REMAINS on YOU. You dont wait for him to look at you to be cast,, if he is lookin all around,, cast anyway!! He will soon learn to look at you. He learns to come straight back to you, sit square at your feet. He already knows all thosse commands,, been collar conditioned to them,, NOW we USE them in an application of FORCE and FOCUS...
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 02-04-2014 at 09:38 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,671

    Default

    Worst thing about the first video is where he is trying to do the work. A construction site running into a concrete barrier. Just horrible....


    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  8. #8
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,339

    Default

    Isnt the objective of Force to pile, to really drum that back pile into their heads?

    Dont you believe we are not ASKING them to go,, were FORCING them to go.

    After all the obedience we taught,, how we introduced FORCE with the fetch command,, dont you believe at this stage, we are not asking them to Heel, Sit,,here,, but commanding them to action?
    Do you not believe we are not setting the standard?

    What standard do you believe the original vid shows? I believe NONE!
    He is more focused on the instructional video,, instead of total focus on the dog..

    I agree about "Where" also.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #9
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Souf Joisy
    Posts
    2,819

    Default

    not a whole lot of people out there that can be fairly compared to Pat Nolan
    Darrin Greene

  10. #10
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,339

    Default

    I wonder if his standards would be different if he wasnt considering a publicly viewed Video?

    People who posts Vids are very brave, because they place themselves between a rock and a hard spot either way..
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •