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Thread: Training trouble

  1. #21
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    As I recall the Hillman puppy program, Bill uses a choke chain very gently on a young pup. He does it in good balance with fun retrieves though, which I think is one of the biggest takeaways from the program.

    That's one of the challenges of following a "program" Sean, not that there's anything wrong with it... when things don't go as planned you're sometimes stuck looking for answers. Good luck!
    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Darrin, are using a choke chain on 3 1/2 month old puppies? Just curious.
    Last edited by gdgnyc; 02-05-2014 at 03:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    As I recall the Hillman puppy program, Bill uses a choke chain very gently on a young pup. He does it in good balance with fun retrieves though, which I think is one of the biggest takeaways from the program.

    That's one of the challenges of following a "program" Sean, not that there's anything wrong with it... when things don't go as planned you're sometimes stuck looking for answers. Good luck!


    This is the problem with all programs...it is just training ,has none thing to do with which program is being used....Farmer address some issues in his Problems and Solutions video but there are far more that can happen....This is where contact with a good club or person comes in handy... RTF should be a first resource for those that don't have a good mentor....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  4. #24
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retriever13 View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm hoping you all can help me out with two issues I'm having in my training. I have a 3 1/2 month old pup that I've been working with going on 6 weeks now. I just started leash training with her and to be honest she's never been that thrilled with being on the leash and I'm not sure how to fix it. So here are my two issues:

    1) As stated previously I just started leash training with a leash and choke chain. My issue isn't when the dog is on the leash it's just trying to put the darn thing on the dog in the first place. She sees me bring the leash and immediately starts jumping and being standoffish and barking up a storm. Basically won't let me come near her with it. I never lunge at her or chase her down. I just tell her to come here, kneel down to her level and sometimes even offer up a treat. It takes a while but she will finally come over but I have to hold her and some times she struggles while I put on the leash. I've also found if I open up the choke collar and put it on the ground in an open loop then put a treat in the middle I can easily slip it over her head as she eats the treat. Heaven forbid if I put it on wrong then I deal with the struggling! Just to head off any questions about the time on the leash and the activities. Well she's only on leash for walks and training. When we walk it's all fun time I never make her do any training and only correct her if she's acting like a sled dog and trying to pull my arm off other wise she loves it. While training she's wagging her tail the whole time and really responds well to commands I am still using treats as reinforcement so her excitement level is high during our training. So not sure why she freaks out when she sees the leash.

    2) Excited jumping with biting! I always end my training with a game like Hunt Em Up where I have her search for hidden bumpers or we play fetch. She loves it and really gets excited. My problem is when I get the bumper from her and she sometimes jumps and jumps and will bite at the bumper. Tonight she ripped my jacket!!! Not happy because it's a nice under armor hoodie I've had for a while. The book I'm using says to use "Pressure" to get her to stop jumping. All I can think of is to knee her in the chest but I've probably kneed her 900 times by now. Should I just chalk it up to her being a puppy?


    Feedback is definitely appreciated and thanks for helping out a new guy.

    Cheers,
    Sean
    Hi Sean, It's not every ones cup of tea?...and I am sure everyone's home situation is different,and I feel blessed having the environment I have here!..
    The puppy you have is 14 weeks old and introduction to a leash and training for it is a big step! ..For a pup ,some take to it right nice!..Programs I've found don't fit with all pups ,and usually the ones that don't get the program!..Mighty harder for the owner that hasn't had a hundred through a program either?..
    Have a look at this?..It may help? It may not give you the answer for yours , but it won't do any harm ? These pups were introduced to leash work a month later than yours,but that's because my place allowed them to be next to me without a leash first.
    It would be great and easy ,if they all followed the same program,these two are sisters!..But require slight/subtle differences to the same program.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    As I recall the Hillman puppy program, Bill uses a choke chain very gently on a young pup. He does it in good balance with fun retrieves though, which I think is one of the biggest takeaways from the program.

    That's one of the challenges of following a "program" Sean, not that there's anything wrong with it... when things don't go as planned you're sometimes stuck looking for answers. Good luck!
    Yes, the puppies are wearing the choke chains in the Hillman puppy videos. It has been awhile, but I don't remember them being used on the puppies in the classic way choke chains are used.
    Renee P

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    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Yes, the puppies are wearing the choke chains in the Hillman puppy videos. It has been awhile, but I don't remember them being used on the puppies in the classic way choke chains are used.
    Depends on your definition of classic way.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    [/B]

    This is the problem with all programs...it is just training ,has none thing to do with which program is being used....Farmer address some issues in his Problems and Solutions video but there are far more that can happen....This is where contact with a good club or person comes in handy... RTF should be a first resource for those that don't have a good mentor....Steve S
    I agree. This is the "perfect World" that I have spoke about in the past. What happens if the perfect world isn't working and you develop a problem. Mentors are so important , mostly because of their experience with various behaviors. That's where many pros trump amateurs, not because of their expertise, but, because of the behavior they have seen in training many, many dogs. I have had issues with a few dogs with choke chains over the years. You can bruise a trachea , get a dog hung up and get a cervical injury etc. Some of the little ones will "freak out" when pressure is applied around the neck and they have no escape.
    Some dogs develop very strong neck muscles and become oblivious to any pressure applied, enter the prong or pinch collars. I have some very small prong collars I have used on some young pups with success.
    Some pups are like "breaking a bronco" kicking and screaming as they are dragged around with a leash. Sometimes a "dead" link works where a choke chain is worn with no pressure, then use a nylon slip collar with the dead chain still on dragging a short rope. Heavens you might even have to do some "cut hotdog" training using the tidbits to encourage good behavior with young ones. Pre-basics and basics are the backbone of any dog training and must be sound!

    Also mentioned ,is attending a obedience class, some at the night school level are very good. Go watch first, then check the credentials of the instructor, for the most part a background in obedience trials is a good resume for an instructor. The main thing is "do no harm" and whatever works if you do no harm. The advantage of a good mentor is you pay as you go, a problem comes up, shut it down, then seek help from the mentor. My thoughts on it after I vowed to not post again over cut hotdogs, weather is nasty so decided to post again.
    Earl Dillow

  8. #28
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    Darrin, are using a choke chain on 3 1/2 month old puppies? Just curious.
    Trying to compare me to Hillman is no different than the other thread where unknown trainer X is compared to Nolan.

    Same goes for Dokken.

    I don't personally use a choke except in very limited circumstances, but that doesn't make me right or wrong.

    I think Hillman has the credentials.

    My original response to Sean was based on the problem he was describing, using this tool with that particular puppy. It doesn't sound like the right combination of puppy, trainer and method to me.

    I don't know Dokken's stuff but I doubt there's anything seriously wrong with it. Sean and Sean's puppy may not be the right combination for that method though.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 02-05-2014 at 04:54 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  9. #29
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retriever13 View Post
    Hi all,


    1) Heaven forbid if I put it on wrong then I deal with the struggling! .

    Cheers,
    Sean
    Question is what do you do when she struggles? With young pups they got to learn to be still, and relax as you hold them. She should be able to be calm enough for you to change her collar around, without a battle. It takes a bit of time but it's something you got to teach. Seems like she might be winning this battle. What I usually do with a struggling puppy is hold them until they give up. When they're little you can usually hold them off the ground tight to your chest. When they get bigger, you can hold them down to the ground, usually just requires a thumb under their jaw bone, although I've actually laid on a few . They'll struggle for a bit, but they'll eventually relax, and you can let them up. This teaches that struggling is futile, only if they're calm can they get up. They should stay calm as you adjust your collar and get ready to on a walk, otherwise you put them back down again, eventually they decide calm is the way to go.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-05-2014 at 05:17 PM.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    "I just started leash training with her and to be honest she's never been that thrilled with being on the leash and I'm not sure how to fix it."

    You have identified the issue. She's never been leash broke. If that is not taken care of trying to control, train, teach a program will be premature. The suggestions of using or not using a choker, pinch collar or flat collar will not change a thing unless you tackle her dislike for the leash.

    The term "leash broke" means the pup has learned how to "give neck. It can be simple if done early on. The first step is usually just dragging around a short lead. Once in awhile the easy ways are not introduced. The assumption often is put one on and proceed. This may prove ineffective (in some cases).

    I do not see the concept of "giving neck" mentioned very often in puppy training programs mostly because the assumption is it will just happen. A pup learns to understand they are no longer free to do whatever they want AND they understand good things will go along with cooperation. However, a pup that fights, screws around, pouts or shuts down doesn't get it. Their energy is difficult to focus.

    This issue is not unlike the trainer that becomes enamored with having a puppy retrieve with no way of getting him to come back for a delivery. The retrieve before "here" sequence is one example. The learning window of opportunity is often skipped or presented backwards. A pup that has learned to "give neck" understands the reason for a long lead.

    As an example, colts (as in a horse) are not nearly as compliant as a puppy. The main problem is they are much bigger. Try hanging onto a 6 foot lead with a 200 pound, wild colt on the other end. When breaking a yearling colt to the lead (notice no one says you need to break a puppy), we snubbed them up to a strong post and allowed them to discover they could not get loose (this is old school, but very effective). They soon learned that it was impossible and any restraint by pulling on the halter had them "giving neck" (surrendering). They truly believe a "puny" human is physically more powerful.

    A pup needs to reach that same conclusion. It frees the pup's mind and allows teaching and learning to occur.

    Put a soft, wide cloth collar on the pup and attach a cheap, thick poly lead. Sit on the floor in your living room and don't do anything but snub the pup up tight. Talk quietly, maybe "give and take" a pig ear, and react in a quiet, calm, fun and totally "in charge" manner. Make being still, quiet and receptive normal. Change the pup's expectation of wearing a leash.

    Once the expectation is altered, place it on him for all routines. Make it so there are a few special situations where he will be free (kind of)....like in romps in large safe areas or in more formal retriever training setups. Once he accepts the lead as normal.....you will be able train.

    Until this happens you will be "pushing a rope" with a pup on the other end.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 02-05-2014 at 06:10 PM.
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