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Thread: The numbers on Creationism/Evolution

  1. #121
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    It was once logical to believe that the earth was flat, it was once logical to believe in spontaneous generation of life. It was once logical to believe that the earth was the center of the universe. It was also once logical to vote republican or democrat.

    I understand HPL's hang up and it on the surface is logical. Either God is a weakling and can't stop bad things from happening, or he is a monster and may even ordain them. These are logical outcomes of a surface study of scriptures.

    Even though I believe in the apostles creed and understand it is illogical to some, maybe even most folks. I find it quite logical. If I see evidence of love, of suffering, of joy; am I supposed to say those are just responses programmed in me through evolution. Is my love for my wife just an instinct that will help our species to survive?

    When I see pain and death on the news and feel sadness, where is that coming from? If I follow evolutionary theory I should be happy when death of others occur because there are more resources available for me to survive and thrive.

    No one taught me to love or to feel bad at suffering. I love because I have been loved before. I feel sorrow at suffering because I know somewhere inside it was not supposed to happen like this.

    Now if I go to science to find out the "why" to these questions I come up empty. So logically I look somewhere else, and the Bible seems to satisfy all my questions.

    Why do I love? Because before the creation of the world I was chosen to be loved by a creator.

    Why do I feel pain when I see pain? Because I was created in a perfect environment with no pain and sin screwed it up.

    How can God be all powerful but still allowed sin to enter the world? This is a tough question that many lose their faith over. This is the hardest question of Christianity in my opinion. But the best scriptural answer I have come up with is that God knew from before the creation that it would turn against him and that he would have to suffer to redeem it. He could have not created the world and have been perfectly satisfied, but he chose to knowing it would affect him personally for his own glory.

    Does that meet a logical standard? Hell no!!! But it is a lot more logical than saying all of our morals,ethics, and feelings are a product of evolution that most times chooses against those traits. To believe in no deity, you have to be ok when someone's morals goes against yours. Franco, why are we so upset when the neocons invade another country? Because it is not right! Why is it not right? Because we have a longing of peace with each other deep inside of us. You cannot say that the longing for peace is scientific when the basis of evolution is conquering genetically inferior organisms.

    So while the logic of the day sounds great, the logic of the day has changed much in the last few centuries.

    So HPL, with your supposed catch 22 of a powerful all knowing God must be mean or he isn't powerful. I would say that the scriptures are consistent saying that God is omnipotent and omniscient. They are also consistent in saying that man has free will. If I am going to believe in a God, he must be powerful and wise enough to reconcile this supposed contradiction. I may not ever completely understand it. If this makes me think there is no God, I now have to find a scientific reason for why I love my wife, my son, why I feel pain when I see injustice in the world, why I long for peace.

    Why would I give up on one illogical choice (existence of a God), to have to try to illogically justify morals, ethics, justice, and peace?

  2. #122
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    Or,,,, God created an angel called Lucifer who rebelled against God because he thought he should be the object of worship. He even created angels with free will. What a fair and just God we have. So God cast him out,,,he eventually beguiled eve who batted her eyes at Adam so Adam ended up disobeying his creator,,,and dominion of the earth which was once held by Adam was transferred to Lucifer. And now Lucifer who was once the angel of light but is now the prince of darkness lords over this world deceiving those who still won't believe what God has so logically put forth for man to believe.
    And those that don't believe God go around blaming sh!t on God instead of the blaming it on the author of sin and death, which is lucifer.

    Just another possibility
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 02-10-2014 at 10:32 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  3. #123
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    Pete I agree with you, but to boil it down, God created his creatures knowing they would rebel. God created lucifer knowing it would bring literal pain and death on himself.

    I would be hesitant in bringing up what I will call the "mythology" of lucifer as this story of a star fallen in Isaiah was about a king of Babylon. Calvin and Luther both shied away from the glorified story you wrote about lucifer, but did not deny the existence of the devil. In a debate with folks about a god, it is usually not good to bring up stories that aren't backed with scriptural and traditional verity

  4. #124
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    It was once logical to believe that the earth was flat, it was once logical to believe in spontaneous generation of life. It was once logical to believe that the earth was the center of the universe. It was also once logical to vote republican or democrat.

    I understand HPL's hang up and it on the surface is logical. Either God is a weakling and can't stop bad things from happening, or he is a monster and may even ordain them. These are logical outcomes of a surface study of scriptures.

    Even though I believe in the apostles creed and understand it is illogical to some, maybe even most folks. I find it quite logical. If I see evidence of love, of suffering, of joy; am I supposed to say those are just responses programmed in me through evolution. Is my love for my wife just an instinct that will help our species to survive?

    When I see pain and death on the news and feel sadness, where is that coming from? If I follow evolutionary theory I should be happy when death of others occur because there are more resources available for me to survive and thrive.


    No one taught me to love or to feel bad at suffering. I love because I have been loved before. I feel sorrow at suffering because I know somewhere inside it was not supposed to happen like this.

    Now if I go to science to find out the "why" to these questions I come up empty. So logically I look somewhere else, and the Bible seems to satisfy all my questions.

    Why do I love? Because before the creation of the world I was chosen to be loved by a creator.

    Why do I feel pain when I see pain? Because I was created in a perfect environment with no pain and sin screwed it up.

    How can God be all powerful but still allowed sin to enter the world? This is a tough question that many lose their faith over. This is the hardest question of Christianity in my opinion. But the best scriptural answer I have come up with is that God knew from before the creation that it would turn against him and that he would have to suffer to redeem it. He could have not created the world and have been perfectly satisfied, but he chose to knowing it would affect him personally for his own glory.

    Does that meet a logical standard? Hell no!!! But it is a lot more logical than saying all of our morals,ethics, and feelings are a product of evolution that most times chooses against those traits. To believe in no deity, you have to be ok when someone's morals goes against yours. Franco, why are we so upset when the neocons invade another country? Because it is not right! Why is it not right? Because we have a longing of peace with each other deep inside of us. You cannot say that the longing for peace is scientific when the basis of evolution is conquering genetically inferior organisms.

    So while the logic of the day sounds great, the logic of the day has changed much in the last few centuries.

    So HPL, with your supposed catch 22 of a powerful all knowing God must be mean or he isn't powerful. I would say that the scriptures are consistent saying that God is omnipotent and omniscient. They are also consistent in saying that man has free will. If I am going to believe in a God, he must be powerful and wise enough to reconcile this supposed contradiction. I may not ever completely understand it. If this makes me think there is no God, I now have to find a scientific reason for why I love my wife, my son, why I feel pain when I see injustice in the world, why I long for peace.

    Why would I give up on one illogical choice (existence of a God), to have to try to illogically justify morals, ethics, justice, and peace?
    One real problem we have with looking at our emotions is that we are so anthropocentric that in our hubris, we only allow those feelings to ourselves and label anything similar in other animals as "instinct". It is very likely that what we call love did, indeed, start out as what is known as "pair bonding" in the animal kingdom. It is pretty well established that, in certain situations, pair bonding gives an adaptive advantage, and if you read lots of posts in POTUS you will see that most of us believe that human offspring raised by a tightly bonded pair have a better chance of thriving than those raised in other circumstances.

    When it comes to sorrow and grief, first, I have to say that there is pretty good observational information to indicate that at least some animals experience something dang close to what we do. It is well known that elephants revisit the bones of dead family members, and we all have heard stories of dogs that pine away when a family member dies. When it comes to our sorrow at the loss of a loved one, it is not necessarily logical that we would rejoice when a valued member of the clan dies. We miss the presence of people (and animals) that are no longer with us or even those from whom we a separated for short periods (sound something like separation anxiety?). How many of you have been kept awake by a howling puppy the first night or two away from mom?

    Your statement that you love because you were "chosen to be loved before the world was created", ties directly into the concept of free will. The fact that you believe that your destiny was determined before the creation of the world belies the concept of free will. No one in a system that has been pre-destined can actually have free will. If ANYONE (even God or perhaps especially God) knows what the outcome is going to be, then there IS NO FREE WILL. If the outcome is known, one might say that "the fix is in", the "dice are loaded". It seems to me that most of the argument made by people of faith as to why a "loving" god allows bad things to happen hinges on man bringing it upon himself through the exercise of free will, and yet, if God is omniscient, clearly there is NO actual free will. As an example: Let's say that I send you down a path and at some point you are going to come to a fork in the path and could go either left of right, but (I am omniscient). I KNOW for a CERTAINTY which path you will take, thus you may get to the fork and think that you have a choice, but since I KNOW which way YOU ARE GOING TO CHOOSE, you actually only THINK you have a choice. In actually, the choice was made as soon as I decided to send you down the path, thus you are NOT exercising free will, but simply fulfilling your predetermined destiny. If your (and by extension everyone else's) destiny is known (predetermined) by an omniscient creator, then by definition, you are not really exercising free will and that creator is directly responsible for the outcome.

    If God is all powerful (omnipotent) His choices were not limited to creating a world where beings would turn against him or not creating a world at all, he could have created the world in any fashion that he wished. He could have opted to create a world where there would be no beings that turned against him.

    As to using logic or science to attempt to justify faith. Doesn't that take away the whole point? If proof is required, then it is no longer FAITH.

    Here is my real problem. If God requires absolute faith for redemption, then He shouldn't have endowed us with the ability for critical thought. Since He is omniscient, he knows what one is thinking, (apparently from before you had the ability to think) so behaving as though one has faith is of no use.

    For Pete:
    "And those that don't believe God go around blaming sh!t on God instead of the blaming it on the author of sin and death, which is lucifer."

    In your narrative, God created Lucifer fully KNOWING that Lucifer would turn against Him and create problems in the world, so I leave the blame for the world's problems at the feet of their true owner, the omnipotent being who willfully set the stage.
    Last edited by HPL; 02-10-2014 at 03:57 PM.
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
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  5. #125
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    Lady Claire Gurney: How do you know you're God?
    Jack Arnold Alexander Tancred Gurney, 14th Earl of Gurney: Simple. When I pray to Him, I find I am talking to myself.

    This thread brought to mind the above quote from a 1972 film.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruling_Class

    Only Peter O'Toole...The quote appears at about 2:30

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meI6f258RKY

    JD
    Last edited by JDogger; 02-10-2014 at 06:36 PM.
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  6. #126
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    HPL, thank you for your well though out responses. And your points are valid and give a lot of people, especially Christians problems. I know I can't convince anybody over an internet forum.

    The only thinking would say is factually wrong is your assessment that God requires "absolute faith for redemption". well, let me rephrase that, absolute faith is required, but that was taken care of By Christ at the cross and resurrection. It is not necessarily a requirement for us. In fact a common prayer of many Christians is "I believe, help my unbelief". And this is a point of contention within the church. The more legalistic side says you must work your way into heaven ( I disagree with this because if I do good deeds to get to heaven, isn't that selfish?). My side, the "reformed" side says "Love God and do as you please", good fruit comes from a redeemed heart. So my camp, who believes in "predestination" has the hope of a universalist because anyone at any point can be saved because it is not based on works. I believe that Hitler, stalin, maybe even Abraham Lincoln(I kid,... sort of) could be in heaven.

    Can I prove factually there is a God that will undoubtedly prove to everyone with out question? No, I am not even gonna try. But I will say that there is a difference between fact and truth. I know for a fact that 2+2=4. This has little affect on my daily life. I don't ponder it late at night and I don't discuss it with friends at a bar. Now "truth", what is this life all about?, has been debated for millennia and will continue to be debated because it is a rationally bigger concept than all the great minds of human existence can prove, and we will continue to talk about it because we will always think about it.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    HPL, thank you for your well though out responses. And your points are valid and give a lot of people, especially Christians problems. I know I can't convince anybody over an internet forum.

    Thanks Mudminnow,
    I have been having this discussion in various forms since I was in college. As I said, I got my elementary education in a parochial school and spent time in chapel every weekday morning from first grade through sixth. I heard the stories about our expulsion from the garden and about Cain murdering Abel. I know that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and I know how Jacob stole Esau's birthright. Hearing our minister recount the old Biblical stories was a wonderful way to start the morning. I learned about the old testament prophets and then about the apostles and about Christ's life and death. As small children my brother and I learned that Jesus loves us (this I know 'cause the Bible tells me so). Faith is easy when one is a child.
    As I got into highschool and then college, a couple of things happened. I became more aware of the inconstancies between the supposed loving god that my teachers had extolled and the way the world actually works, and then in college I began to be exposed to fundamentalist evangelical christians, and their intolerant views further caused me to question religion in general. I am also a man of science, and the more I learned about things like the vastness and age of the universe, the harder it became to believe in the supernatural. In some ways, it's too bad. I have no doubt that faith can be a very comforting thing, if one can truly believe.
    I was recently talking to an avowed atheist friend who sings in the Methodist choir (he really loves to sing). We were discussing our shared love of traditional hymns and Christmas carols (I have about 400 Christian musical arrangements on my computer) and how that seemed a bit of a paradox considering where we stand on the belief spectrum. We both like the old songs; Onward Christian Soldiers, The Old Rugged Cross, Rock of Ages (a personal favorite, what beautiful phraseology), In the Garden, Abide With Me, and so on. At Christmas we like the religious songs; Go Tell it on the Mountain, O'Holy Night, Adeste Fidelis, Ave Maria. We are, of course, aware of the irony. My friend's explanation is that he would like for the story to be true, would like to be able to believe it in his heart. I think that he may be at least partially correct. For me there is also the connection to my childhood and simpler times, but one should not confuse sentimentality with faith.

    I would also like to say that Franco earlier characterized this as a debate, but I would prefer to consider it a thoughtful discussion. Debate implies a certain adversarial situation and an attempt to persuade. I have no interest in removing someone's faith. I do think religious fundamental evangelism can often be a dangerous thing, holding back progress, and don't want fundamentalists advancing their views in our educational system, but often faith can be a positive force.
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
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    So how is it that if GOD is "all-knowing" then we have no free will? We are still free to choose even if GOD knows what we will do. It's only if GOD intervenes then free will is not taking place; futhermore, we make choices all the time that are not changed by GOD knowing what we will choose.
    Last edited by coachmo; 02-11-2014 at 11:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coachmo View Post
    So how is it that if GOD is "all-knowing" then we have no free will? We are still free to choose even if GOD knows what we will do. It's only if GOD intervenes then free will is not taking place; futhermore, we make choices all the time that are not changed by GOD knowing what we will choose.
    Sigh...Try again..
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDogger View Post
    Sigh...Try again..
    OK, once more, the short version: If anyone knows for a certainty what is going to happen (and that is the very definition of omniscience) then your actions are predetermined. If your actions (and thoughts) are predetermined, then, although you may think you have freewill, you are really only playing out some known, predetermined role. By example, if you are holding a ball out at arms length and then release it, to someone who is unaware of the laws of physics, the ball would appear to have the possibility to move in any direction, it could zoom straight up to the sky, or shoot off horizontally, (the appearance of free will) but we know that it's course is predetermined and that it will fall to the ground. The ball had no actual choice, the die was cast, the ball's destiny was predetermined, no actual free will. I really think that my fork in the path example was better, but ...
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
    (John Dewey)

    Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company.
    (George Washington)

    Gig'em Aggies!! BTCO'77HOO t.u.!!

    www.HughLieck.photoshelter.com

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