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Thread: Blind help!!!!!!!

  1. #31
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    Note to Mike Perry, your mailbox is full and needs to be filleted before anyone can PM you.

    Aloha from soggy Wales,

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    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Try this next time you run water blind and report back. It's cold everywhere now so if cold is the issue maybe wait for warm up do do this.
    .
    Before you drive to water blind at another spot set up a simple back pile of 4 or 5 white bumpers visable about 40 yards on land. Even on a dirt road is ok.
    Now bring dog out line up send for pile. 2nd time right after send "back" nick "back". 3rd run a freebie. 4th force on "back" again with ecollar pressure. 5th freebie.
    Now pack up an go run your "short" hopefully no handling water blind.
    Did dog enter water with purpose on 1st send?
    .
    .PS
    I have observed a number of people who didn't use enough pressure, didn't know how and when and how much pressure to use, when not to use it
    More than one was shocked when dog was lit up by a competent trainer. Dogs where surprise someone finally called them out too. lol.
    Last edited by Breck; 02-09-2014 at 12:04 PM.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    .PS
    I have observed a number of people who didn't use enough pressure, didn't know how and when and how much pressure to use, when not to use it
    More than one was shocked when dog was lit up by a competent trainer. Dogs where surprise someone finally called them out too. lol.
    I agree completely.

  4. #34
    Senior Member rotcsig443's Avatar
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    Sounds like I need to revisit land and water force for a little bit and see if that will help with the problem. Thank you all for the help. Hopefully this will solve the problem. Luckily my yellow female is loving life while rocking and rolling and is keeping me from pulling my hair out over this problem.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG View Post
    what am I missing here. The handler claims to have the tools to deal with a no-go, but refuses to use them. The second you let a dog know that she has options as to whether she has to go or not, you've just made yours and your dog's life miserable. protocol has been spelled out for you and you choose to ignore it. if you are foolish enough to point a dog at water that is too cold, you'd better man-up and do what is right for the future of your dog. The dog has to go when given the "back" command. if you have to throw a bumper ten feet out in the water to get the dog to go, do it. your dog refused to go, don't overanalyze it, deal with it and get on with your training.
    GG
    Good advice, provided the tools are there. I don't see evidence of adequate tools to deal with this. I also agree with the repeated advice to allow the water to warm a bit. While that's going on, give your dog a full set of formal Basics, even if that bothers some dim bulb somewhere. You rarely see a dog that is a victim of being too well trained.

    Evan
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Water might be cold, but I assume the dog has not been water forced. Thus my suggestion is to Water Force the dog, of course this brings up the question if the dog has already been Forced to pile on land, which would require pressure conditioning to have been done, aka. force fetch and collar conditioning. If that's all been done, and the dog has a good collar pressure performance relationship start water-force, with a water back pile. If it hasn't might need to take a few steps back in order to move forward. A water forced dog should enter water whenever asked regardless of temp. and whether they feel like it or not. When you reach that point the handler has to start being more intelligent than the dog, with regards to water temp. Still much easier to do this type of training with a reasonable water temp, winter-early spring work might not be ideal. Water-work is where a handler really starts needing to utilize the collar, and your dogs collar conditioning effectively, stimulation levels that might've got it done on land, are usually completely different than what you will need to get the same behavior in water. Also make sure the collar is tight (labs shrink when wet), and that collar is positioned so the dog can't pinch it off.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-10-2014 at 11:58 AM.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member rotcsig443's Avatar
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    Sir, if you will see the comment on the first page about her training up to this point I think it will explain the situation a little more. However, I have come to the conclusion it is a combo of the colder water temp and a slight intimidation of big open water.

    Quote Originally Posted by rotcsig443 View Post
    Started out on land with pattern blinds to a pile that was build during hand signal training. Once she had an idea down, I transitioned her over to a 7 bumper land T drill. Once she was solid on that I transitioned to running short (25-30 yard) cold blinds. Once she was confident on that I spent about 2-3 weeks putting a little length into it and stretching her out. Once I had her confident in running a 100 yard land blind and she was good at it, I decided it was time to start on water blinds. At first I was just curious and sent her on a cold blind into the water first thing and she nailed it. No problems. But to make sure all aspects were covered I didn't just stick with that. I put her through water force, which she was confused about a little at first but seemed to get the idea after a little while. Once through that, and since I do not have access to a swim by pond or anything similar to one (just big rounds cattle ponds), I transitioned over to a water T which she did just fine with. No problems really at all. Once she was running a great water T, I worked on lengthening out her water blinds. Once she was out to about 100 yards I was happy with it and moved on to other stuff. All that training took place 2 summers ago now, and she has for the most part been very solid on everything until now. She has never been reluctant to retrieve a mark or run a blind, no matter how long or short or good or bad of weather until now. Its like she just decided she isn't gonna pick anything but marks up when water comes into play. I am going to get several birds out for tomorrow training and let her walk with me around the pond to put them out so she knows there are real birds somewhere. Hoping that will get her excited enough to trust me again on these water blinds. Hoping to get one good short blind (35-40 yards) out of her and really praise her if she does what I ask and be done for the day and slowly build from there in the following days. But if that doesn't work then go back to step one and completely restart with her. If anyone has a better idea, or has gone though this let me know what you did to fix it because Im completely confused.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotcsig443 View Post
    Sir, if you will see the comment on the first page about her training up to this point I think it will explain the situation a little more. However, I have come to the conclusion it is a combo of the colder water temp and a slight intimidation of big open water.
    I think you're right to a point. Cold water + big water is a formula for trouble with many dogs. But what Hunt'EmUp and I have both attempted to describe (correct me if I'm mistaken Hunt'EmUp) is that the training you previously laid out does not appear to be in a logical sequence, and does not contain an organized forcing procedure that would (or should) include water forcing. Many trainers here can lay out a chronology for Basics that would give your dog the tools it appears to lack. And those tools would lay a foundation for success in subsequent training. Your dog's behavior should tell you, first and foremost, that it needs that foundation. No time like the present to get that done. The water will always be there, and so will birds. The question is will the training be there next time, and the times after that?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

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  9. #39
    Senior Member waycool's Avatar
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    Wow...

    Huntemup, Tony Marshall, Breck, Mike Perry, Wayne Nutt, GG,Evan

    Kudos to you all... Clearly you are dog trainers.. I don't know much about retrievers but I can attest to the precise questions you have asked.

    ROTCSIG,

    Go back and read responses again... these folks are being extremely helpful IMO .. as dog trainers we often have selective hearing as we are human and want good news not bad. Never be afraid to admit that it is, what it is. I cant tell you how many folks I've helped but it took hard questioning and soul searching before the owner could fess up to reality. They either did something directly to cause the issue OR they simply left out pertinent pieces of information thinking it was irrelevant or they were embarrassed to admit a mistake. there's no perfect dog trainers or dogs !!! Any dog trainer that hasn't ruined or nearly ruined a dog probably hasn't trained very many and a there's not a dog that's worth a flip that hasn't screwed up.

    I noted you mentioned going to a test and being "embarrassed" ... These are dogs. They will embarrass you regularly I remember screwing up at a National Championship one time with a dog that was 100% reliable (more my fault than the dogs) and someone in the gallery said.. "Sorry man ... that was a little embarrassing" I laughed ... and replied "Why not at all ... I ain't a virgin" If you train dogs long enough.. they are gonna make you look silly.. no sense fretting it..

    The only advice I would offer to your current issue is ... Putting the dog up in the crate after the refusal is enforcing the avoidance. Whether you back up or go forward is up to you and how you read what the dog needs but the crate will certainly make matters worse. Best of luck !

    Again, Good reading from the above posters I mentioned... lots of good stuff there...
    Last edited by waycool; 02-10-2014 at 12:51 PM.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    I believe Evan; is correct; The OP hasn't laid out the sequence of training and where the dog is to tell us, what might be appropriate for the dog in question. Or at least not with the Lingo that most trainers would understand it. It's not that we are criticizing the training, it's just that we do not wish to put a dog in a situation that might require appropriate pressure, to get the desired goals. If the dog is not properly prepared for it. There is nothing wrong with applying pressure to a dog who needs it, if the dog has been conditioned to handle said pressure, but Above all training and correction must be fair. It is unfair and usually will create many many problems if one applies pressure to a dog who doesn't understand it. If the dog is trained to understand it, you can and should use pressure. This is one of the inherit problem with asking for advice on an internet forum, we do not know the dog's history. When you get into advanced techniques and problems as described in this thread, those giving must be careful with advice, and those taking should have a shaker full of salt. Most people really do want to help, but no one wants to make a problem worse.

    I have a dog (female of course) that used to embarrass me on a daily basis; still does. (started doing it @ about 3yrs, inbtw SH @ MH ) Take her out of the box after hunting season and people ask me when I got a started level dog. You either learn to ignore it, laugh a bit and get back to work, or you go insane and quit training dogs. The worst thing I could do is put her back in the box when she decides to throw these fits, If I let her win; she'll just keep doing it. Now I have put her back-in the box when I start getting upset; (it's unfair to train a dog angry), but later I take her back out, and we get it done. I actually find these episodes humorous now; I'm pretty sure I have no embarrassment left, and I don't get angry ( as much); that dog has taught me a lot about self-control.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-10-2014 at 01:58 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
    "I train dogs, Not papers"

    GMRH HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    HR Storm.. the Pup (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)

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