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Thread: Blind help!!!!!!!

  1. #41
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    What I see is a whole lot of trainers which didn't read post #7. Who continue to give advice based on a "program"

    Here is a little advice, get with a pro and have them look at the dog. You won't probably get any better advice than that. I don't see this being fixed by redoing what you have already done.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Chuck Ward's Avatar
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    Just a suggestion here.

    Reading all the previous posts and info provided, seems to me your dog is demonstrating a lack of confidence/trust/refusal in this area. Step back, rebuild her confidence/trust, have fun with her and what you're doing. Work back up to previous levels and beyond.

    Most of all, make and have fun! Good luck

  3. #43
    Senior Member rotcsig443's Avatar
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    Sorry. I wasn't trying to ignore info. I know that Huntemup, Tony Marshall, Breck, Mike Perry, Wayne Nutt, GG,Evan are very intelligent with these types of things (given they do train quite a bit ). Guess I just don't really understand what is missing as I am just an individual that trains by themselves during what free time I get. Plus i would agree… I don't have all the lingo down which does cause some confusion. Even though I have several dogs that I have worked on training, I still don't know NEAR everything and know that I am not perfect at it (even though some days I would like to think I am haha). That is why I am here asking for help and trying to figure out where I messed and what I missed.

    Being embarrassed is not a big deal because I know it is going to happen. Guess I was getting at that it is better to skip a test and ensure the dog is properly prepared rather than trying to pass one with a dog that you know is having problems at the time (hence embarrassment).

    I have followed a mixture of Mike Stewarts "The Wildrose Way" to build foundations, then followed Chris Akins material to work on more advanced stuff. Since posting this topic, I have since ordered Fowl Dog 1,2,3, and 4 to try and gain a bigger/better understanding of some of these drills and to learn much more than the little I know as of right now. Unfortunately, I do not have the ability to afford having a pro trainer help me since I am in Vet School and have very low funding (once my hunt test allowance I give myself has been taken out). Hell, I had to sell some of my duck hunting equipment just to afford this DVD on my vet school salary.

    Once Lily, (my BLF which is having the problem) had basic obedience down (including sit and come to whistle), was collar conditioned, force fetched, and was steady to the shot and could successfully run a triple mark retrieve at reasonable distance, I moved on to hand signals. I concentrated on those things first in preparation for the upcoming duck season since she was initially going to be a meat dog and not a competition dog.

    With hand signals, I introduced pile work, and went through land force to pile. Once she had force to pile down, I worked pull push drills to ensure she was solid and understood whistle sit 100% (and that it didn't mean to just come sit in front of me when I blew a whistle). From there we went to pattern blinds (so she would have a far pile to retrieve from during land T and double land T). Got a pattern blind location established. I went through land T and double land T and she did great on both of those. Once Lily was running a double land T out to about 100-125 yards I moved onto to running varying lengths of cold blinds. I ran cold blind from 25-150 yard in the yard, timber, grassy fields, through empty drainage ditches, literally everywhere I could legally go to ensure she had been well exposed. Once I was happy on those I felt it was time to transition over to water blind work.

    At first I was simply curious so I ran a few cold water blinds right out of the gate, and she did amazing. Casted like any dog I had ever seen (except she still can't get the idea of floating down), held a fairly straight line, and i was happy/excited. However I knew I just couldn't depend on that. I needed to ensure all bases were covered. I went back and completed water force. She had a tad bit of trouble with this, but did figure it out and eventually was doing just fine with it. Once water force was complete, I knew that swim-by needed to be addressed, but with the lack of access to a swim by pond I knew it couldn't be done. That being said, I then moved on to a water T and spent quite some time on this, and incorporated as much of the concepts learned in swim-by-drill as I could into this
    (I only have access to simple round cattle ponds that would not really lend themselves to swim by) . I would have Lily go to the back pile on the water T, and then cast her from side to side from each side pile while on the way back in. I would also (for example) send for back pile, whistle sit, send for left pile, whistle sit, then send for right pile. Unfortunately these water T piles were floating piles, and not piles on the banks. Once running this water T drill very well, I transitioned her to cold blinds. I ran these blinds at varying distances. Some long, some short, square off the bank, angled off the bank, sending her from right against the water line to sending her from back away from the water line. Some blinds being "planted" in the middle of the water, and some "planted" on opposite banks.

    Once she had gotten to this point is when I decided hunt test might be fun to run and I started running them with her. She went 4/4 for SHR, 3/3 for HR, and passed the 1 finished test I have ran her in.

    I hope I was able to clear up any confusion with my previous posts. If you see anywhere I have missed training feel free to point it out.

    Until we get another warm up, I plan on revisiting land force work. Then once it warms up going back to force to water and working from there. Also plan to incorporate more real birds and more bird wings to use as a reward for completing what I asked her to do (if that is a bad idea please let me know). I am going to stop putting her up, as I see how putting her up as "denial training" does actually reinforce what she is wanting.

    Once again thank you for all your help on this issue. It is defiantly a learning experience for Lily as well as a HUGE learning experience for me.
    Last edited by rotcsig443; 02-10-2014 at 02:58 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    That is Better explanation...Question how comfortable are you with the collar and it's use? Also what collar are you using and a what levels.

    Too me there are two ways to play this game, as we've seen with the responses
    1. Simplify make everything fun, and hope it's a confidence issue and with repetition it will go away (No pressure; no Collar)
    2. The foundation is in place, you know your dog can handle pressure as you've worked her through it on other aspects. She's testing you in the water work, where she's uncomfortable, and choosing to challenge you, so you take a no nonsense approach and challenger her back (with pressure). After all this is why you've put all this training in so you would have the tools to over-come issues as they come up. Break her down, work her back up.

    There is value in both approaches, but with a 3yr. HR dog; that I want to be a solid finished dog, and perhaps go further. I'd probably be going for the #2, the tools are in place time to use them.

    Also Birds-Live flyer are good, you should use them; but dogs are not human they don't really process the idea of bribery-reward. I've always found that solid training and enforcing standards, works better.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-10-2014 at 04:22 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
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    GMRH-I HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    HR Storm.. the Pup (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)

  5. #45
    Senior Member rotcsig443's Avatar
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    I have a SportDog 400 wetland hunter. She typically responds the best when being ran on a 2 or a 3. When I first began training I didn't really like using a collar (mainly because of price and not haveing a understanding of the basics on how to use them). But now it doesn't really bother me one bit to apply pressure with a collar. But just like all parts of training, I don't have a full understanding on all the uses of a collar.

    I will follow through and work through the second option which you talked about. Hopefully it will work out. Thank you for your help.

  6. #46
    Senior Member mtncntrykid's Avatar
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    Not a trainer here but went through this exact same issue recently. After much time analizing where the problem came from I was finally able to recognize the problem and the solution. Her is what I found.
    After a very successful hunting season with lots of adversity in all kinds of retrieves for my 2 year old, it became apparent that I now had to back up my training program. A season of my dog going after birds "sometimes" after the gun went off and "sometimes" being told no bird and told to stay, had led to a confused dog when it came to sending on blinds. She didn't understand why I was sending her out into the water when there hadn't even been any shots fired. All season I had only let her go after a gun went off and not every time.

    It has been a fairly easy fix in that I went back to force fetch drills and strengthened the issue. We are taking our time now and it is going good again. It was like we just took a break for hunting season. Now we are resuming for the hunt test games again except that now the trainer is just a little more "educated".

  7. #47
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Here is a little advice, get with a pro and have them look at the dog. You won't probably get any better advice than that. I don't see this being fixed by redoing what you have already done.

    /Paul
    This, by /Paul, best post on the thread. I had a similar problem with one of my dogs at about the same age. She had senior passes, usually ran fairly nice blinds, but started goofing around in the middle of longer water blinds. She'd slow down, grab at floating weeds and pond scum, etc. and kind of paddle aimlessly around, "sort of" going as sent, just not with much conviction. She had been through water force and swim by a year earlier, but sort of hurried through as it was done in fall as it was getting cold. I got help from a very experienced and helpful trainer, mainly because I knew that I'm a little nervous of my own sense of timing and tend to use less pressure than a situation calls for. Jack Gwaltney helped me by showing the sequence on one of his own young dogs and then standing behind me as I worked my own dog. From this lesson I learned exactly where to use pressure, how many freebies vs. nicks, when to use continuous vs. nick, and how many repetitions to do during a session. I did about 8 or 9 sessions over a 2 wk. span and did marks (no blinds) til it was finished. The lesson was an incredibly huge help not to mention confidence builder. NOT something easily learned from the internet or "following a program". Some people are gifted at timing and reading dogs; most of us could use hands on help as we work on problems that aren't covered in the books and DVDs.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    This, by /Paul, best post on the thread. I had a similar problem with one of my dogs at about the same age. She had senior passes, usually ran fairly nice blinds, but started goofing around in the middle of longer water blinds. She'd slow down, grab at floating weeds and pond scum, etc. and kind of paddle aimlessly around, "sort of" going as sent, just not with much conviction. She had been through water force and swim by a year earlier, but sort of hurried through as it was done in fall as it was getting cold. I got help from a very experienced and helpful trainer, mainly because I knew that I'm a little nervous of my own sense of timing and tend to use less pressure than a situation calls for. Jack Gwaltney helped me by showing the sequence on one of his own young dogs and then standing behind me as I worked my own dog. From this lesson I learned exactly where to use pressure, how many freebies vs. nicks, when to use continuous vs. nick, and how many repetitions to do during a session. I did about 8 or 9 sessions over a 2 wk. span and did marks (no blinds) til it was finished. The lesson was an incredibly huge help not to mention confidence builder. NOT something easily learned from the internet or "following a program". Some people are gifted at timing and reading dogs; most of us could use hands on help as we work on problems that aren't covered in the books and DVDs.
    Good response and info Julie.
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA

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  9. #49
    Senior Member rotcsig443's Avatar
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    Not trying to jinx anything but Lily seems to be doing A LOT better with that big water blind no go problem we were going through. Went back and revisited some previous force training, and figured out my collar had gone to crap on me which wasn't helping with training. If the weather hold off this afternoon, I will try and get some video to put up of her working.

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