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Thread: Talk about Ideological Idiocy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    It seems to me that Mike did provide some factors involved in Detroit's demise, and that you are denying them in favor of saddling labor with all the blame. Labor has very little say in the design of the vehicles that they produce.

    On your other point, nothing like hitting a hot-button. I'm not sure why the government should spend money studying if these workers are happy with their jobs or not. I started this thread because I thought that it was outrageous that politicians should threaten a company for wanting to run it's company by legal means. What they are doing is attempting forcing their ideology on VW. VW knows what works for them and if I were them I would tell them to go take a flying leap and do my expansion in Mexico.

    And while were at it, I might as well express my distaste with subsidies and tax breaks. When I lived around Detroit, I saw many plants close right when their tax abatements went away and move their plants to southern states who they had squeezed subsidies and tax abatements out of.
    Like you, I am not a big fan of tax abatements but if they are not successful, then they will go away simply by the fact states and localities will suffer. On a further note, your explanation does not explain the FACT that most of the auto industry in the south is not Ford, GM or Chrysler but new companies such as Nissan, Toyota, VW, Mercedes, ect. The total environment is why they are here and not just unions.

  2. #22
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    The late 70's and 80"s caused Detroit's problems eh? The SAME TIME Nisson was building a HUGE auto plant in Tennessee that is still today quite successful. I guess for YOU that makes sense.

    PS I like your language. It gets more attention than your logic. In fact as it should.
    Obviously you are not a student of history

  3. #23
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    You are right. I did not read all the labor history you quoted. But I see NO REASON to require a union in order to have a works council. That is also the reason I asked whether it was a law or a regulation. I did not know an was curious. After reading all your post 3, maybe it is time to get rid of these worthless laws.

    You might be surprised that I agree with you a works council is a good idea. A marriage between the workers of a company and it's workers that creates constructive communication that focuses on both the welfare of the worker and the company is a good thing. But it does not need some national union to get in the way. That is the problem I have with these national unions. Today's unions are nothing more than a legalized monopoly of labor. Something that is abhorred when it comes to business. A company union, a Ford union, GM union, Bridgestone-Firestone union, ect. Not a United Steel Workers Union that also represents not only ALL steel workers but also represents Bridgestone-Firestone workers. How can the same union represent the welfare of both steel workers and tire workers??? The answer is they can't. The so called labor movement is today nothing more than an attempt through law to create a monopoly of labor. by doing so, exercise monopolistic powers. funny, at the same time almost everyone decries business monopolies(legally) for the very reasons they want to create labor monopolies. This is what I am against.

    I remember when I worked for IBM, no union. It BEGGED for suggestions and complaints. Suggestion boxes were everywhere. Managers were constantly asking for suggestions or complaints. Didn't work very well. To many employees were mistakenly afraid of consequences. Company even wanted both and did not care if they were unsigned. Like you I like the fact that you were on the floor regularly. Just by the mere fact that the workers knew you, they will more readily voice any objections to change you make, if they see some. A good friend of mine who worked for Bridgestone-Firestone and a union member once related to me that since he worked the night shift that he almost NEVER saw the plant manager. Personally, I can't imagine that he didn't see him AT LEAST once a week. If I were the plant manager's boss, I would fire him or he WOULD be on the floor every shift at least once a week. Can't imagine anything more important in his job.

    I can't imagine paying the sorriest most worthless worker the same wage as the best worker. I can't imagine a union fighting for that sorry worker keeping his job. I can't even imagine a company wanting to fire the good worker and keeping the sorry worker. I don't think such a company would last long. By the same token, a company forced to keep a sorry worker and lay off a good worker has little chance of success.
    See the problem with people/employees is that all think they are the best and the hardest workers. People do not want to own up to their short-comings and like to judge other against them.

    See a union effort is always better, because these folks realize the reason they are not managers or business owners is that they are good at working not telling people how to work, therefore they need a business manager representing them for pay, safety and just to keep them from getting screwed over.

    Is it perfect no, but is better than no representation!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    It seems to me that Mike did provide some factors involved in Detroit's demise, and that you are denying them in favor of saddling labor with all the blame.
    Buzz - I read the post & found it to be structurally unsound - While some factors mentioned may have contributed, others did not & there are other contributing factors. When the 727 was the big contributor to Boeing profits there was an individual high in the company who felt we could ride that model & needed no other for the midsize market. Fortunately he got outvoted. The guy running Ford was the big push behind the 787 outsourcing - we all see how that worked . Unless someone has worked in a very large efficient manufacturing environment it is very hard to understand the culture that exists. Any company unable or unwilling to empower the productive better have a monopoly or they will not be around long. As for Detroit. i do not believe anyone is blameless.

    When we bombed Japan & Germany into oblivion, our country then turned around & updated their factories to the point they were more modern & efficient than what existed in this country. That in itself was a tremendous advantage over this countries aging factories. & that's just one example.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Brad Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    That's what makes these clowns trying to tell them how to go about their business so ridiculous.
    One of those "clowns" used to be a very influential employee of a very successful, privately owned, gas station chain. I'm pretty sure he knows more than you how to run a business.

    The fact of the matter is that Tennesseans don't want Chattanooga ending up like Detroit. Unions are responsible for that mess.

    Personally, I don't want government involved in anything, so I struggle with this intervention. The only job of government is to protect it's citizens and I believe that is what the governor is trying to do. Still don't know how I feel about it...
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  6. #26
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    Isn't the Government too busy taking over & destroying healthcare to be meddling in & destroying more auto industry companies?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Brad Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swliszka View Post
    Lets throw some more wood on the fire. If it was not for the TVA (big government) you folks would not have any electricity to build your give away auto plants. Examine the Republican/Democratic governors/state legislatures in the following states falling all over themselves giving away tax subsidies/infrastructure construction-improvements.
    VW (TN)
    Mercedes (Alabama- SC)
    BMW (SC)
    Hyundai(Alabama)
    Kia (GA)
    Toyota (Kentucky - MS)
    Honda (Alabama)
    Nissan (TN - MS)
    Let me re-state that I'm not a fan of federal government intervention, but TVA is one of the few federal works projects that is not a drain on federal tax payers. It is self-sufficient (i.e. funds itself)

    I see it as a wise investment for the time. Tell me any other government "investments" where the same can be said.
    Mioaks Southbound Sammy JH
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by menmon View Post
    See the problem with people/employees is that all think they are the best and the hardest workers. People do not want to own up to their short-comings and like to judge other against them.

    See a union effort is always better, because these folks realize the reason they are not managers or business owners is that they are good at working not telling people how to work, therefore they need a business manager representing them for pay, safety and just to keep them from getting screwed over.

    Is it perfect no, but is better than no representation!
    My first job was at about 12 delivering news papers on a bicycle. Never had a business manager, paid part of my college cost the first 3 years and all the 4th. Never had a student loan, 1st time home buyer loan, SBA loan. Never belonged to a union, paid overtime, had a morning or afternoon break. Never ever even asked for a raise. Always knew that if I found a better job, nothing stopped me from taking it if I so chose. Only have had one car loan in my life. I am not rich nor am I poor. had I not paid so much STUPID TAX I would consider myself rich. I have stayed away from investment advisors. If they were so smart then I doubt they would be seeking my money to invest. Have tried to only aquire debt that made me money and THEN pay it off as soon as possible.

    Actually, my father came as close to a business manager as I have ever needed and he said EVERYTHING in two sentenced. SPEND LESS THAN YOU MAKE. IT IS NOT HOW MUCH YOU MAKE, IT IS HOW MUCH YOU SAVE. People with advise like you, I stayed away from LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!!!!!!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Turner View Post
    One of those "clowns" used to be a very influential employee of a very successful, privately owned, gas station chain. I'm pretty sure he knows more than you how to run a business.

    The fact of the matter is that Tennesseans don't want Chattanooga ending up like Detroit. Unions are responsible for that mess.

    Personally, I don't want government involved in anything, so I struggle with this intervention. The only job of government is to protect it's citizens and I believe that is what the governor is trying to do. Still don't know how I feel about it...
    The Detroit mess was result of mismanagement at the highest levels for 20+ years, millionaire execs that were to busy improving their golf game than improving their product line. Year and year of putting out product design that no one wanted, and failing to address what the competition was doing.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by menmon View Post
    See a union effort is always better, because these folks realize the reason they are not managers or business owners is that they are good at working not telling people how to work, therefore they need a business manager representing them for pay, safety and just to keep them from getting screwed over.
    I had to laugh when I read this. I don't know any union auto workers but I can assure you that the majority of Firemen, Cops and Tradesmen I know do really well running their own side businesses outside of the union. These business' range from handyman work to running large projects or companies with employees. The funniest part is not a single one of their side businesses are union.
    Erik B.

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