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Thread: westminister

  1. #131
    Senior Member chesaka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamoDog View Post
    Are there any Show Judges on this forum that can explain why Show Dogs have to be heavier ? Why is that look more appealing than that of the actual Breed Standard?
    I am not a show judge but I have shown for many years. There is something called "show weight." It is weight you put on the dog to give it more "show presence" in the ring. The problem is, and this is even in Chessies, when you take an athletic and properly-sized and well-conditioned dog in the ring, that dog can be easily overlooked in the presence of larger, fatter, bigger-boned dogs. The field dogs end up looking scrawny. The show/field split has happened in labs and you now basically have two breeds bred for different purposes. If you want a show dog, that is the pedigree you go looking for. If you want a field champion, you go in a different direction. The split I believe is happening as well in Chessies but it is still possible to have a dual champion. The reason I say the split is happening is because if you look at most of the top field Chessies they look different from the top show dogs. The field Chessies are more slightly built, have less coat and less blocky heads. The show Chessies are bigger, have more bone, more coat, shorter legs and are more barrel-chested. Now don't start yelling. I said most, not all!! There are still quite a few Chessies out there that can be CH-MH if owners put in the effort. Now a dual champion? Can be done but only because it is less competitive for the field dogs in the show ring. Put a good handler on a not-too bad looking top field Chessy and it still can be done. Patsy Barber showed DC/AFC Distagon MH **** to his show championship in six shows. Patsy was a powerhouse in the show world and knew how to get it done. She told me a judge said to her "Patsy this is not what you normally bring in the ring." And she told him, "Just shake your head and pretend he's brown." Distagon was deadgrass and had some masking, was built like a field dog but had good conformation. That is how the game is played.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Hey everybody should hit up a specialty one time and get a conformation certificate on your Lab; We had a grand time parading all the MHs (45lb to 90lb) labs with whippet tails and weirdo coats around (for $10, at a hunt test once). Every single one of them was determined to be a lab, given a certificate, and the fawned upon by the judges on their movement. Only problem was none of us knew what a trot was (it's not throwing a bumper and releasing a dog, that's running), (it's not quick stepping with your dog on lead; that's jogging) It took us forever to figure out a trot is what a field lab calls a normal walk. Very entertaining to watch a bunch of old guys in camo, attempting to put their dog into a trot .

    True a CE certificate is the WC of the show world, but it is a nice piece of paper to pull out and say YES I have a LAB; he's been tested .
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-13-2014 at 01:18 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
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    GMRH HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast)
    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    SHR Storm.. the Pup (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)

  3. #133
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    Hi Paul:

    There were ten competing Labs gone over at the National Amateur. All got a Conformation Certificate and included Grady and Trav. They were gone over by AKC conformation judges from the LRC. We have high hopes this will continue as a regular event.

    At the '13 Golden National Specialty, two of the judges spent one day at the field trial (one judge could not attend due to a family emergency). They viewed the Amateur and the Qual, and at the Qual, they basically sat on the line with the judges. John Gassner and Andy Whiteley acted as their mentors and answered all questions, etc. Both judges wrote excellent critiques of their day and were impressed by the quality of the field Goldens. We hope this will become a tradition as well.

    Conformation judges tend to judge what they know or are used to seeing. Early on, those that judged sporting dogs actually hunted themselves so were aware of what a good hunting dog needed in order to last out the season. One way to help educate judges, particularly those that are not breeder-judges, is to include field dogs (high level, active field dogs) in their judges' training seminars. Have the judges go over them, find out what hard working condition actually feels like under your hands, evaluate movement, and learn why the saying "form should follow function" has meaning.

    I grew up riding and training horses. In an event such as hunter-jumper conformation, not only would the horses have to perform, they were then stripped of their saddles and their conformation judged at that point. Wouldn't it be great if all the conformation retrievers had to retrieve across a pond and then be judged while soaking wet for the Goldens. The Labs would have to physically run a certain distance, retrieve a bird, and return within a limited time frame and still remaining standing while being judged on their conformation. I guess the term is "dream on."

    Glenda

  4. #134

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    This is the same old conversation that happens every year after Westminster. I think we can all agree that we have a "type" of look in Labradors that we like. Labradors are not the only breed with the division between the "show look" and the "field look" (setters, spaniels etc). Each venue breeds the best to the best and in time they get the "best" of what does well in their particular venue. Both parties are guilting of straying from the standard. To group all show labs together is as silly as grouping all field labs together. Myself I like the look of a moderate show bred Labrador, however I can appreciate the working ability of any retriever regardless of the breeding.
    My first CH/MH was a dog who finished his title at 8 1/2 years of age, and continued to run tower shoots and hunt for 3 years after that. That dog got his Jh title and was show to his show CH first. He was training but not running at that time, he was approx 5 when he titled. He was then tragically burned over 2/3 of his body 3 months after getting his CH. He fought to live and live he did. He went on to get his SH title and MH title, he was my first MH dog and 39th CH/MH in the history of the breed. You want to talk about determination and bottom end - this boy had it - along with the sweetest personality. At the time I was running him in master, I was also running a QAA dog. There wasn't a single hunt test that I didn't wish that I could combine qualities from each of those boys. I really enjoyed it and loved each of them for their differences.
    If a person wants to play the field trial games - he gets a field dog. If a person want to play in the show dog word - he gets a show bred dog. If a person wants to hunt and run hunt tests he can get whatever he wants. Any dog that hunts or runs in hunt tests or trials need to be in good working condition - period. It's really just that simple folks. The reason I run hunt tests and judge is because I love to see the dog work, and the people who love them. Just because a dog has a look that isn't my type doesn't mean that I can't enjoy and appreciate it. I work with both types and own both (CH/MH FlatCoat, field bred MH, show bred MH)

    Let's all be nice, and enjoy the dog work.

    Kim

  5. #135
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjsynergy View Post
    This is the same old conversation that happens every year after Westminster. I think we can all agree that we have a "type" of look in Labradors that we like. Labradors are not the only breed with the division between the "show look" and the "field look" (setters, spaniels etc). Each venue breeds the best to the best and in time they get the "best" of what does well in their particular venue. Both parties are guilting of straying from the standard. To group all show labs together is as silly as grouping all field labs together. Myself I like the look of a moderate show bred Labrador, however I can appreciate the working ability of any retriever regardless of the breeding.
    My first CH/MH was a dog who finished his title at 8 1/2 years of age, and continued to run tower shoots and hunt for 3 years after that. That dog got his Jh title and was show to his show CH first. He was training but not running at that time, he was approx 5 when he titled. He was then tragically burned over 2/3 of his body 3 months after getting his CH. He fought to live and live he did. He went on to get his SH title and MH title, he was my first MH dog and 39th CH/MH in the history of the breed. You want to talk about determination and bottom end - this boy had it - along with the sweetest personality. At the time I was running him in master, I was also running a QAA dog. There wasn't a single hunt test that I didn't wish that I could combine qualities from each of those boys. I really enjoyed it and loved each of them for their differences.
    If a person wants to play the field trial games - he gets a field dog. If a person want to play in the show dog word - he gets a show bred dog. If a person wants to hunt and run hunt tests he can get whatever he wants. Any dog that hunts or runs in hunt tests or trials need to be in good working condition - period. It's really just that simple folks. The reason I run hunt tests and judge is because I love to see the dog work, and the people who love them. Just because a dog has a look that isn't my type doesn't mean that I can't enjoy and appreciate it. I work with both types and own both (CH/MH FlatCoat, field bred MH, show bred MH)

    Let's all be nice, and enjoy the dog work.

    Kim
    One word here, : CLASS
    HOME OF:
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    Brush Creek Waterspook, JH, WC- my first girl.(Spooky)

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda Brown View Post
    Hi Paul:

    There were ten competing Labs gone over at the National Amateur. All got a Conformation Certificate and included Grady and Trav. They were gone over by AKC conformation judges from the LRC. We have high hopes this will continue as a regular event.

    At the '13 Golden National Specialty, two of the judges spent one day at the field trial (one judge could not attend due to a family emergency). They viewed the Amateur and the Qual, and at the Qual, they basically sat on the line with the judges. John Gassner and Andy Whiteley acted as their mentors and answered all questions, etc. Both judges wrote excellent critiques of their day and were impressed by the quality of the field Goldens. We hope this will become a tradition as well.

    Conformation judges tend to judge what they know or are used to seeing. Early on, those that judged sporting dogs actually hunted themselves so were aware of what a good hunting dog needed in order to last out the season. One way to help educate judges, particularly those that are not breeder-judges, is to include field dogs (high level, active field dogs) in their judges' training seminars. Have the judges go over them, find out what hard working condition actually feels like under your hands, evaluate movement, and learn why the saying "form should follow function" has meaning.

    I grew up riding and training horses. In an event such as hunter-jumper conformation, not only would the horses have to perform, they were then stripped of their saddles and their conformation judged at that point. Wouldn't it be great if all the conformation retrievers had to retrieve across a pond and then be judged while soaking wet for the Goldens. The Labs would have to physically run a certain distance, retrieve a bird, and return within a limited time frame and still remaining standing while being judged on their conformation. I guess the term is "dream on."

    Glenda
    I was pleasantly surprised at the Golden that won the breed at Westminster. I am probably being overly hopeful, but maybe some of the judges education is working. While that dog did not look like a trial dog, he did look like he could work all day.
    Coppertop's Captain Kirk CD MH WCX CCA VC (2004-2011) (Kirk)
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  7. #137
    Senior Member Tim West's Avatar
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    Bleu sit.jpgBleu SET.jpgBleu GO.jpg

    Maybe this would play, except he's about two inches taller than the standard. This is Bleu, who I co-own with Frank Price. Repeat breeding of Ammo, winner of an Amateur this fall and hunted extensively this season in my waterfowl guide business.
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  8. #138
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    Tim
    I'm a black dog kinda guy, but that boy is great looking!!!
    We are only as good as those that surround us.

    Birthplace to:
    •FC-BAYOU TECHE TEX-'09 Nat'l Finalist
    •FC-BUTCH's DREAM CODE of TCR-2x Nat'l Qualifier
    •FC-DREAM DANCIN'-2x Nat'l Qualifier
    Gettin' Jiggy Widdit-MH
    Dancin' Dreamer Kate-MH (•FC-"FINN",QAA-"Coal"-MNHofF, QAAs-"Tank", QAA-"Allie", MH-"Tease", QAA-"Hardy", MNH-Ruby)

    RIP Sweet mama Dancy!!!

  9. #139
    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chesaka View Post
    I agree with Sharon. That Golden was nice and not with too much coat and bone. I also thought the Irish Water Spaniel was lovely. Was glad to see that the Chessie judge found two out of the three dogs with working titles to give Select and a JAM too.
    Me too. I liked both of them. Actually I liked MANY of the group reps. Our Lab judge should be reprimanded for awarding obesity,imo. It's not right, it's not healthy and it's just a terrible example to show the general public. I know several vets and they all complain about the same thing constantly-- obese labs. And if they say too much to their clients, some will walk out and never come back. How stupid when it's SO easy to feed a dog correctly (unlike us people esp if we like to eat and drink!).

    And yes to Karen/Billie. I always joke that sometime between 6.5 and 7 wks pregnant, mine will finally look somewhat "show ready" (see below pic of a 6.5 wk preg girl vs before breeding last year). The whole thing about no tuck only means no TUCK (think U shape like Weims or Pointers). It doesn't mean they need to have a rounded or even straight underline. That's something pointed out to me by a Canadian show person years ago.
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    Last edited by windycanyon; 02-13-2014 at 06:31 PM.

  10. #140
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Lash View Post
    Is there a "show lab" that weighs less than 80 pounds?
    There is a "show lab" that lives in my house. He doesn't show after aging out of puppy classes because I keep him at 78lbs. Not too bad for an 8 1/2 year old. The field lab that is 9 months older is 76 lbs. They exist but "hide" in the blind with Dad!
    Hihope Hiland Heathen of Perth CD, RE, CGC, TDI

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