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westminister

65K views 259 replies 107 participants last post by  Breck 
#1 ·
What was that black thing that stood by the sign that said Labrador Retriever. I thought it would need doggie cpr after its waddle around the ring.
 
#42 ·
We were watching the Olympics, but now that the photo has been posted Oh MY GOD!! AS a former livestock photographer I can tell you for a fact that that dog is NOT fat. You all think it is out of condition when, in fact it is over conditioned. Just a bit too much finish, that's all.

Having fought my weight all my life, I know how carrying around extra pounds makes one feel and how it affects one's ability in the field. I will not have a fat dog. My dog is an athlete. The only positive thing I can say about that dog is that it is unlikely to drown. Bet that bitch floats like a cork.
 
#46 ·
I've often wondered what the standard would look like if ,like at Beagle Ft's they have a bench and field competition in the same trial and you can enter one or both classes, but generally the field work takes priority over the bench . I'd often see people enter the field and not the bench ,but rarely see someone just show up and enter the bench. I will say that in beagles the 2 worlds are closer together.
 
#44 ·
Food for thought:

Chessie entry: 14; 3 JHs, 3 SHs
Curly entry: 8; 1 JH, 1MH
Flat entry: 21; 6 JHs, 1 SH
Golden entry: 38; 3 JHs
Lab entry: 38; 3JHs, 1MH
Toller entry: no titles

These statistics are based on the dogs that were shown. I did not count absentees.

Once again, I am humbled in the presence of the Flat-Coated Retriever people who work so hard to keep the form and function of their dogs a priority.
 
#61 ·
While I also think the flat coated people are awesome, I do want to point out that it's *relatively* easy to get a CH on a flat coated retriever compared to a Golden retriever or a Labrador.
The flat coats only have to beat a handful of dogs, twice (plus beat one other dog several times) to get the CH. The Goldens have to beat, in this area, at least 21 other dogs at least twice, plus 3-4 other dogs several times, to get the CH. It's not easy. The labradors are even worse with the numbers it takes to get a CH.
The competition for the bench CH in Goldens and Labradors is fierce.
 
#45 ·
I missed the "Sporting" class but did see the terriers and on until the BOS. I picked the "Terrier" to win. My wife was rooting for the Bloodhound (seemed like the crowd favorite also). I bet the terrier would go down a foxhole if allowed. Not sure if the Bloodhound could catch up to the fugitive or not. HPW
 
#50 ·
This chart sums it up nicely I think:
Excellent chart!

The key here is the "tuck up." Ask any show Labrador person, they don't want tuck-up. They want a level line at the breast and belly without being obese.

Those of us who have working dogs require our dogs to be athletic. We don't want them heavy and we don't want them thin.
 
#49 ·
Just a random thought. Could the reason for this ugly shapeless fat look be because that is what the vast majority of dog owners (Labs being the number 1 choice once again) see on their couch every night? In the end, it's all about money. There are relatively few of us field dog lovers, so the nod will go to the others. To me it's not even a matter of moderate or extreme. I believe the field dogs are gorgeous. The others look like caricatures of dogs, like plush stuffed animals look like the real bears and bunnies.
 
#52 ·
Just a random thought. Could the reason for this ugly shapeless fat look be because that is what the vast majority of dog owners (Labs being the number 1 choice once again) see on their couch every night?
No. It is as simple as this -- "Form follows function." It is a well known fact.

Look at fashion models and female beauty pageant contestants (at their competition weight), how many of them can bear children, nurture them, care for a house and husband, or hold down a job outside the home? That is not their "function." Their function is to look beautiful, so their form is to have oversized breasts, tiny waists, long thin legs with little muscle, no fat at all, and skinny hips. Pretty to look at but not meant for the real world.

It is the same in the dog world.
 
#54 ·
Bottom line: The judges should both know and judge by the breed standard. It's not acceptable for a judge to ignore the standard for a breed, but unfortunately there is zero accountability and it's done all the time. Bravo to any judge who will put up a moderate dog instead of an out of balance, overweight dog that looks very little like the standard calls for.
 
#58 ·
A friend put her field lab in the hands of a pro handler. He got his championship but had to put on about 15lbs. The pro also knew what judges to show him under. The bottom line is you can be BOS one day and nor even take group the next. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder on any given day be darned the standards.
 
#59 ·
http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Results+2013
To me it's not just a fat issue, these dogs are all holding excess weight but look much more functional to me. Is there a tipping point where the breed club starts to insist that judges breed closer to the standard? I keep hearing the judges can't judge them if they don't get them but there are moderate dogs being shown so that is a cop out IMHDAO.
 
#60 ·
Y'all quit hating. I just showed my boy "Jack" the photo of the bitch posted above and he looked at me as if to say "I'd hit that". It is quite obvious that our dogs and the show ring dogs are worlds apart. However, to each their own, and I'm just glad to see people from all walks of life participating in varying dog sports. How far away are we from seeing a "Silver" win best of breed?

Lonnie Spann
 
#63 · (Edited)
I watched in on TV, the lab looked out of place in the sporting group; if they continue to put that look up in the sporting group, there's never going to be a Lab running for best in show @ Westminster. Now the golden was refreshing, moderate and well done compared to what they have put up previously. The judge must've liked the look as the dog took 3rd. I thought the flat coat was beautiful, more muscle and bone than you usually see in the breed. Seems weird that the cockers gets to put in 3 varieties of the same dog; sort've stacks the deck for that breed. Still this might be something for the Lab people to think about 2 varieties Show and Field. Seems like the breed divisions are off, why is the water dog in working (guarding)group and not the sporting group, why isn't the standard poodle in the sporting group? The ones I was rooting for the mini-pin, the corgy and the blood hound (he was Fat, with too much skin But Bloodhounds are COOL), Of course they choose a fluffy variety, at least it was a sporting breed. I'll never understand the appeal of that poodle look (the announcers can say it all they want no-one has ever hunted a dog cut like that). Still I think overall the judges put up really nice dogs for the final, it would've been hard to pick a winner.
 
#64 ·
The dog in question is FAT! That's all we know. Fat is easy to fix.

Fat has nothing to with her genetic predisposition to hunt. That dog MAY be a marking fool! MAY be able to remember a 3-retired quad. We'll never know' All we know is what we see.

Some people choose to play a different game, that's all. And they do what they need to do to win at their game. That's what WE do. Be stupid not to. We hear a lot of people say there are probably potential NFCs laying around on peoples' sofas. Could be. Could be some of them are running around a conformation ring, too.

Whip that dog into shape and send him to Mr. Danny. Then we'll know what he can do. Or not.;)

JS
 
#65 ·
As I watched the show I got a distinct impression that many of the judges had already decided on which dog was going to win....based on the history of the dog in competition. It seems like this should be irrelevant, as each dog will show differently at different times...yet the ones with the deepest history of wins, usually carried the show....

I agree the lab was a poor representation of the breed...but I am not a trained judge...

Like the Golden a lot!
 
#66 ·
Westminster generates these same discussions every year regarding Labradors which makes one wonder why people with field trial/hunt test/hunting Labradors care. That Best of Show Wirehaired Fox Terrier certainly was not fat like the obese Labrador that the conformation people seem to find attractive.
 
#67 ·
That's right, Dr.! :D We should all petition the Westminster club to move their show to June ... then none of us would be sitting inside at the computer fussin' about it. :D

Only thing I don't like are all the generalizations that come out. When I take a dog to the line, I just want a judge to watch me and see what I can do. Never mind what we look like in a picture.

JS
 
#72 ·
Maybe. But we still don't know if he can hunt.

Any hunt test or field trial you go to you will see dozens of dogs that are very out of proportion. Got one myself ... rump 2" higher than her withers, if she wasn't long in the body she wouldn't be able to run a straight line because her back feet would be stepping on her fronts. But she's jammed 6 AA stakes and got a MH in a total of 4 hunt tests, just for fun.

Used to be people with working dogs would say, "doesn't matter what my dog looks like; let me show you what he can DO.". Now, every February we come on RTF and dis a bunch of dogs that are playing a totally different kind of game because of what they look like.

BTW, I also have a bench CH that was one of the better known conformation dogs and sires in his time. He's as good a pheasant hunter as anyone needs and got his MH in 9 tests ... well better than the average. I used to get a lot of rolling eyes on the way to the line with him. It was fun.;-)

JS
 
#73 ·
Fat hides flaws(makes me pretty much perfect).
 
#74 ·
You folks better watch it or the PC police are going to nab you for malicious comments about confirmation/show dogs. Every one I judged in AKC hunt tests were physically incapable of "finishing" their dog with a JH . In the 1950s-60s it was fairly common for show bitchs w/some field achievement to be bred to full bore FC/AFC studs. I remember one I believe was Whyden Kennels(?) NY. However I did have the opportunity to help train a Chessie called Caraways Wild Goosechase owned by Roger Reopelle and trained by Del-Tone Kennels Phil Berger. Chase had a Ch and either FC or AFC. In my book I would gladly take him home for life. He was one hell of a good looking talented dog when I met him at 3 months old there on. Too bad folks can't breed that way today.
 
#79 ·
Chase was my all time favorite chessie. I only spent a few days training with Roger and Chase but the dog left a heck of an impression. Left some pretty nice Dual Ch in his pedigree wake as well.

The sire of my first dog was a Dual Ch... don't see those any more
you do in chessies.
 
#78 ·
Along with the fact that the dog had no "wheels" under it seemes like a very short muzzle also....Anyone remember what a good American Cocker looked like before the muzzle was eliminated on them ???? Jim
 
#83 ·
Richard,

The simple answer is because they are not as popular so a greater percentage of breeders are concerned with both field and show. So, you have a higher percentage of animals that compete in both venues. If you do not have enough breeders dedicated to preserving the breed standard you will lose breed-type in both camps.

Tom
 
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