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westminister

65K views 259 replies 107 participants last post by  Breck 
#1 ·
What was that black thing that stood by the sign that said Labrador Retriever. I thought it would need doggie cpr after its waddle around the ring.
 
#213 ·
Probably the best example of intelligence, ability, and instinct being bred out of an animal for the sake of the show ring.
 
#216 ·
I will repeat this but not give out the name of the owner. A person who is in to Goldens does field show and agility work. He went to one ot the Golden specialties and along with other stuff had entered a dog to get its confirmation certificate. The dog failed. The dog went on to get quite a few show ribbons, Dont know if it made CH.
 
#224 ·
Hi Barb:

The LRC Board is well aware of the comments being made about Westminster and have seen the majority of the comments made on this forum. All letters sent to them about the subject are read, and in many cases, discussed.

As you stated, they need more breeder-judges rather than all breed judges to start being used to begin meeting the standard in the conformatioin ring. Also, like the GRCA is doing, get good examples of field labs shown together with conformation labs at judges' seminars. Go over dogs actually in hard working condition so you know what muscles really feel like. Have the conformation judges attend field trials/hunt tests with competent mentors answering their questions. Take a judge hunting with you.

The LRC's Board is composed of half field trial members---all having/had titled field trial Labs, are 8 pts judges, the majority having judged a National. The other half is composed of many breeder-judges, who also compete in hunt tests and other performance events. One of the Board meetings is held during the National Amateur. They all know what a hard working, athletic dog should look like. Their dogs fit that criteria.

I think the CCA or CC (Conformation Certificate) is really helping with people knowing more about what is and what isn't good conformation. Many retrievers competing in field events are taking part in them. We have a beginning of field Champions who have them and more and more Master Hunters.

The biggest factor is getting the judges who know the Labrador (Golden, Chessie) standard as just more than written words. They know how it should be applied. Talking about it really won't be what causes the changes. The changes have to come about when Labs are not rewarded in the conformation ring if they do not physically meet the standard as well as the purpose of the standard---primarily working/hunting dogs. Field people are pragmatic, if the dog can't retrieve and do the work for which it was bred, they don't use it for breeding. There has to be some reason for people not to breed Labs (or any retriever) that cannot fulfill its original purpose whether it is being used for that or not. If they can't win in the breed ring with a grossly obese, or even overweight, dog, you will soon see some changes being made. If no one wants to buy pups from them or use their dog at stud, you will see even bigger changes made.

It won't happen overnight, but I have seen a lot of changes already in Goldens with the number of conformation people becoming involved in field work and thus wanting a Golden that can compete in both. Maybe the one they have now is not perfect for the job, but they are determined that the next one they own will be. Chessie's lead the pack with Duals.

We, as the stewards of the retriever breeds, have to be the ones to get involved and get the job done. We cannot count on the AKC --- silvers being registered as chocolates even tho the LRC is very strongly opposed to this is one example. Get people to watch Fran's video that was mentioned earlier in this thread. We need to dig out those old photos of the early breed champions---the ones that were just as much at home in the field as in the ring, and equally accomplished in both.

Glenda
 
#227 · (Edited)
Like most of the opinions stated in these 23 pages, i watched Westminster sporting group, and was not thrilled with what the breed group judge chose as "representative" of the lab breed. Once again, any chance of a lab taking BIS was thrown out the window. I did go back and watch about 1 1/2 hours of Lab Breed Group judging, it was 2.23 minutes in length if i remember right. It was evident about 4 minutes in, that the judge was favorable to the body type that later represented the breed. Each time, 5-10 dogs were pulled out (out of 76 total entered)at a time and judged. I would estimate that at least 1/2 of those dogs, longer in leg, and indicative of the "Breed standard" were passed by with barely a look. It appeared that the judge was not familiar with, or maybe biased against the leaner, more athletic appearing lab. Every one of them was dismissed.

I rarely voice my opinions, however i Emailed both westminster council, the LRC, voicing my displeasure at such a sad representation of this wonderful breed. I suggested in the future that any future judge be selected from FT, HT judging, as well as Confirmation background. In all fairness, i am a proud owner of a "Show Lab", who is seeing first hand that they are capable of doing the work labs were bred to do. But, as an admirer of all things Labrador, I believe we must all stand up for the breed, no matter what the "Type", and promote this wonderful working, loving animal, by voicing our opinions en masse to the appropriate panel, or official representatives, and get this train back on the rails.

Dazed.
 
#232 ·
Like most of the opinions stated in these 23 pages, i watched Westminster sporting group, and was not thrilled with what the breed group judge chose as "representative" of the lab breed. Once again, any chance of a lab taking BIS was thrown out the window. I did go back and watch about 1 1/2 hours of Lab Breed Group judging, it was 2.23 minutes in length if i remember right. It was evident about 4 minutes in, that the judge was favorable to the body type that later represented the breed. Each time, 5-10 dogs were pulled out (out of 76 total entered)at a time and judged. I would estimate that at least 1/2 of those dogs, longer in leg, and indicative of the "Breed standard" were passed by with barely a look. It appeared that the judge was not familiar with, or maybe biased against the leaner, more athletic appearing lab. Every one of them was dismissed.

I rarely voice my opinions, however i Emailed both westminster council, the LRC, voicing my displeasure at such a sad representation of this wonderful breed. I suggested in the future that any future judge be selected from FT, HT judging, as well as Confirmation background. In all fairness, i am a proud owner of a "Show Lab", who is seeing first hand that they are capable of doing the work labs were bred to do. But, as an admirer of all things Labrador, I believe we must all stand up for the breed, no matter what the "Type", and promote this wonderful working, loving animal, by voicing our opinions en masse to the appropriate panel, or official representatives, and get this train back on the rails.

Dazed.
Thank you Dazed. Without the comments from the membership, no one ever knows-- do they? We can be part of the solution... but if not, we become part of the problem. It's obvious to me why I'm a member of LRC.
 
#231 ·
Interested in contacting the Labrador Retriever Club, you can go to their web site at www.thelabradorclub.com. If you go under the heading "about LRC" you can scroll down and find how to reach various contacts. For general contact go to info@thelabradorclub.com. Your letter will be read, a reply will be sent, and the Board will know about it if it is on a pertinent subject. If it is asking for info re getting a pup, breeding a dog, etc. , you still will get a reply, but it won't necessarily be presented to the Board. Be sure that under subject on your e-mail it is obvious you are asking a question or wanting to discuss a subject. If it is empty or says something like "hi" or mentions Russian girls, it will not be opened!

There are a lot of good areas on the web site you might wish to explore. Every member of the LRC Board cares deeply about the future of the Labrador Retriever. All have been actively involved with the breed for many, many years.

Glenda
 
#233 ·
Nice to see after all the name calling finger pointing and other general BS it apears that all folks concerned with the future of the labrador agree that this years representative was a gross misrepresentation of the breed (Nicole and paulies owners excuded). My question is why did the LRC see the need to change the standard in the 90's? Did the previous standard not represent the breed? Hopefully some folks much more knowledgeable than myself can elaborate on why we need to continue to change a breed standard on a dog that has been the mnost popular AKC registered dog for many years?
 
#234 ·
As I recall, one of the changes was to make more than 1/2" under or over the height in the standard (of an adult dog) a disqualification. That's when the wickets came out. And also when the show breeders who bred the English style specialty type Lab started howling like smashed cats! I don't think many judges follow this part of the standard. Why should they? They don't follow the rest of it either, for the most part.

I think the other change was that they allowed for a slight wave in the coat down the back and on the rump.

There may be other changes or my interpretations above may be incorrect. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Swack
 
#236 ·
In my opinion the change to the standard has nothing to do with the look and weight of the show Labrador of today. If anything it may have TRIED to help by having a DQ for undersized dogs that we saw in those days.
The problem is the BIG breeders and breeder judges present their dogs in fat condition and place the same type. I feel really bad for the owner , that this years BOB winner is getting slammed all over , but it is about time we started screaming! At least take the weight off , even if you don't create an athlete structurally ...
 
#237 · (Edited)
It's one thing for the field lab people to whine about dogs being over-weight, they've been whining for years, (the 80's at least ;)) the show people do not care. When they start getting it from other sources, the other breeds, the dog health advocates, the vets, and media (all those people who like to stick their nose in), they may start to care. If they keep making the Lab the biggest Laughing stock in sporting breed, on a national stage. Then you might actually see some change, or at least the dog be transferred into the working group with the rottweilers, where it won't look as out of place ;).

I congratulate the Golden's a few more years of showing such dogs and we might see a golden in the final. Heck they might have a chance at the big prize. Golden's just might beat out a Labrador at something yet j/k ;)
 
#238 ·
http://slimdoggy.com/when-did-overweight-labs-become-the-new-normal/

I don't think this newer article got posted but actually has some neat info in it. I had sent it to one of my vets the other day and she loved it. Today, had Sr well checks and to be honest, I held my breath as I felt the one was 2# overweight (60 instead of my preferred 58#). We talked about the depth of bodies/chest that are so en vogue. She feels those dogs are going to be at higher risk for bloat/torsion possibly. So not only are we looking at shortening life spans by 2yrs on average, how would people feel if their dogs started dropping to torsion even earlier? It just makes me sad.
 
#240 ·
I too really liked this article, posted it on my FB page as well. I think that it's root point is critical - regardless of the breed standard - that any dog carrying that much weight is unhealthy. Specific to Labradors it is especially disconcerting, considering the popularity of the breed, to promote a look (obese) that has significant physiologic and musculoskeletal impact. Such a big impact that it shortens lifespan by up to 2 years. As a veterinarian I have never understood why breeders and competitors in this area of competition would want to risk their dogs health and longevity. Not to mention the potential effects on reproduction.

My opinion is that obesity should not be promoted in such a public way. It would be nice if the organizations governing the conformation competitions, who also emphasize the fact that they support the health of the purebred dog, would work to assure that dogs representing ANY breed are healthy, in addition to meeting breed standards. They are not ignorant of these facts - the following from the AKC website as general information for dog owners:

"Weight – A healthy dog’s weight is the result of the balance between diet and exercise. If he is getting enough nutritious food and exercise but still seems over- or underweight, he may have a health problem. Don’t let your dog get fat by giving him too many between-meal snacks; obese dogs often develop serious health problems. The best way to tell if your dog is overweight is to feel his rib-cage area. You should be able to feel the ribs below the surface of the skin without much padding."

As many have pointed out -- it all starts with the judges -- they pick the winners, and if they were selecting fit dogs instead of obese dogs then things would change. Without that fundamental change it will continue. Again as this well done editorial points out it happened in human body building. It happens with halter horses (pigs on stilts). Dogs are no exception. Sad.
 
#241 ·
What's really ironic is that while the BOB lab has been compared to a pig or a steer, due to the American public's supposed desire for healthier food and a coinciding wish for leaner meat, neither FAT pigs nor FAT cattle do well in the show ring.
 
#247 ·
I am NOT in any way advocating this or saying it is called for in this instance, because I just don't know enough. I don't know even how I feel about the idea.

However, I find myself wondering...


Is there any sort of sanction for a judge who awards a first place that is outside of the standards? Or is the judge the judge, and must be allowed to judge?
 
#248 ·
Greta,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm guessing that the judges decision is final. There may be some method of protest through AKC, but I'm not familiar with dog show protocol.

Short of a Lynch Mob, I think the best thing to do would be to contact the LRC and voice your opinion. I think Glenda posted a link in this thread and assured us they would be read.

Swack
 
#250 ·
I'd like to make a comment, but first thank the RTF forum for many, many years of helpful insight. Knowing I am just a hunter and not in the game of being a professional FT. I've never felt the need to join this forum. But Westminster and the reactions got me motivated.

There are many fine, well balanced, Show type Labradors that were either not chosen or did not participate in this years Westminster Dog Show. My thoughts are the judge had an agenda. She either likes "Typy" Labradors and chioose the most fitting to her eye(which may mean she needs her eyes examined) or she did not want a Labrador to have any chance winning the Best in Sporting Dog group.

The opposite happened at Crufts this past year. A Panel of judges chose Loch More Romeo, a three year old Italian bred Labrador with a Sire from the States. Romeo went on to come up just short of winning Crufts, Europe's most prestigious show. Crufts uses a judge to look at the "Bitches", and another to evaluate the dogs. This year the two judges could not agree who should win best in breed and a higher ranked judge chose Romeo. Romeo is a well balanced Labrador with much muscle and plenty of air under him. Best of all he is a Showman. The bright lights and crowds bring out his best.

Not all Show breeders are equal. There are plenty that put Balance and temperament first as well as knowing what the breed standard calls for. A certain group of breeders from Michigan have "Over done" Labradors and have gained influence over what the judges put up for winners. The "Typy" Labrador is something of an abomination today because the lady from Michigan who started it all passed away a few years back. Annie Cogo knew what balance meant and her Windfall Kennel produced beautiful "Typy" Labradors. One Black Piper perhaps the most perfect girl ever produced. Once Annie Cogo died Show Labradors have continued to get more "typy" at the expense of Balance. Annie had a following and without her to critique pups big and typy just got bigger.

Maybe one day judges at Westminster will put up a Labrador that would have a chance to win. Not having five posts I can't post URLS , but just google Romeo Reserve winner at Crufts and watch the You Tube videos of a special Labrador. He may be Italian, but his roots are in America.
 
#252 ·
"44 Magnum" that will get the job done for sure :D. It would be great if you used your real name and where your from. I understand where your coming from, I think. Thru anecdotal contact at hunt test with show people, I have heard the vernacular "over Done" to describe a lab. Never have I heard a hunter use that term to describe a dog. If your here to say the "Michigan Mafia" screwed up the show labs all by themselves, I ain't buying it. Please use your real name and where your from.
 
#251 ·
I very much appreciate most of the commentary and debate in this thread. I too, like most of you, couldn't believe what I was seeing when I saw the picture of that poor bitch. This is just me, but my first thoughts were "that poor animal is destined for early joint problems and a shortened life".

I haven't read every single post, so if this has already been mentioned, please forgive the redundancy.

Perhaps what I find the most troubling is that weight issues in dogs, much like in people, shorten their lives. No respectable breeder, owner, judge - whomever - should promote something so directly contrary to good health and longevity. There is some science behind this, for those that need to see it in writing rather than rely on a healthy dose of common sense. While the Purina 14 yr life-span study is somewhat long in the tooth (2002), I don't believe that the fundamental conclusion has changed: being overweight shortens a dog's life. Period. How appropriate that the study population was Labrador retrievers.

"Median life span was increased by 1.8 years, or 15 percent, in the lean-fed dogs compared to the control dogs. Median life span (age at which 50 percent of the dogs in the group had died) was 11.2 years in the control group compared to 13 years in the lean-fed group."

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=26745

The original study:

https://www.avma.org/News/Journals/Collections/Documents/javma_220_9_1315.pdf.
 
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