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Thread: New suffix title QA2

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    For those against this new title, why do you support green "also ran" ribbons?

    /Paul
    The fact that you refer to it as an "also ran" ribbon pretty much answers your own question doesn't it? In minor stakes they mean nothing, in major stakes they can infer QAA status; however no title designation goes with any green ribbon. However the AKC is now proposing to change that with the QA2 thing.
    My guess is from the AKC perspective this is viewed as a possible new revenue stream and a way to encourage people who get a 1st or 2nd in a Q to continue to run Q's in order to get the new "TITLE".
    Kind of like the way they have done with the whole MNH entry increasing money generating headache causing fiasco.

    OTOH I seriously doubt that FTers will be flooding QUALS with entries minutes after they open!!

  2. #112
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    If the intent is to reward dogs whose career is defined by the Qualifying Stake why make it seem more important than it is by implementing restrictions when the definition of being qualified for a Limited All Age is already in the rule book?
    I'd have to suspect that this is why there is no distinction between O/H Qs & "other" Qs by the AKC. They already have their mechanisms in place for assessing the QAA status, and by following those same requirements for QA2, it doesn't add any new record-keeping details for them.

    Ed, I don't think that the definition of being QAA is being changed. It is simply adding onto that level of achievement with another "interim" level. There would be two reasons to do this, I think. First, AKC will add more revenue from those who continue to compete in the Q. Second, it will give the incentive for an interim goal for those who are not yet ready for AA, and/or may be getting experience for higher aspirations for their next dog.

    I know of one dog who got a JAM in the Am in a rather small trial, which made the dog QAA. The dog is a really good dog, but it was really a lucky day for him. He was not yet up to the capability of being a consistent finisher in AA stakes. I know of another dog who became QAA with a 2nd in an O/H Q ... and then also went on, a couple of months later, to take a 2nd in a "real" Q running against the pros as well. This owner felt that the O/H Q was just as demanding as the "real" Q later. While the O/H Q was had a smaller entry than the "real" Q, there were not many who finished the trial. The winner of that trial was a first-time-in-a-trial handler and dog ... while older, more experienced dogs and handlers were not up to the task. Yet, I also know of a handler who took a 2nd in an O/H Q who felt the tests were easier than they expected (the handler having run only MH with a very consistent record in MH passes). All three of these "anecdotes" involved dogs between 2-1/2 and 4-1/2, so not the scenario John might expect of "also-ran" FT dogs achieving the QAA when they were past their prime. Surely there would be some instances of that occurring, but it remains to be seen whether that would be the majority of outcomes, rather than the minority of outcomes.

    Then, we also have instances when handlers double-staking Q and Am insist that the first series of the Q was more difficult than the Am. That doesn't necessarily make most people assume that an Am placement or JAM should be "discounted".

    Since there are so many variables in a field test, it would be hard to define the testing/judging tightly enough to make it like formal obedience. Even in formal obedience, where the tasks are uniform and the exacting precision approaches neuroticism, there are dogs who can achieve identical scores, yet the one dog does so with style and another offers no excitement in the performance. It doesn't take long before breeders and fanciers figure out the differences in those individual achievers, and then make their breeding or puppy-buying distinctions accordingly.

    FWIW, in obedience, the majority of competitors are owner/handlers, so in that respect the playing field is pretty level. However, just as in field, not all owner/trainer/handlers are created equal When competing in the "B" classes, the "amateur" handler will face off against experienced trainer/handlers who are known for being highly-respected instructors through seminars and DVDs, etc. Even so, and even though the tasks are highly stylized, there are days when the "professional" trainers' dogs will falter, and the "amateur" will succeed.

    Another thought occurs to me. The judges for field trials have to be amateurs. We trust them to know and reward excellence when they see it. Through their experience in training, competing and judging in field trials, these judges have seen many great dogs of all the breeds; and they have seen the not-so-good. If John or Ed are judging, I believe that those who would run under them would be honored to do so, and trust their judgment. It wouldn't matter what stake they were judging.
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  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    I'd have to suspect that this is why there is no distinction between O/H Qs & "other" Qs by the AKC. .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8EshIhnoTA

    Except potentially ...The one could be like the "Q" I linked to earlier which is like jumping rope double dutch with two jump ropes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a3jbQ5Edvo.... the other can be like the one depicted in the you tube clip above jumping rope with no rope at all ;-)


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    Last edited by john fallon; 02-27-2014 at 04:54 PM.
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  4. #114
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    If your implication was me I have come to the conclusion that if this is important enough to involve new amateurs in field trials it is not a bad thing. People have been listing their dogs as QAA without any official verification, at least a recognized designation will be easily verifiable.

    Unlike a new suffix attached to dog's registered names the Judges Award of Merit ribbons are a tradition in field trials beginning when the Qualifying was known as the Non Winners Stake. JAM ribbons are of little significance to most serious field trailers and most would not object to their elimination altogether although most also appreciate the traditions in field trials.
    Well actually just a bit curious. I see green ribbons in the same light as this new title or designation. I know personally for some dogs their getting a green ribbon is very fulfilling as that is a huge accomplishment for them while other dogs it is a disappointment because they should have done better and are more talented. Either way in the grand scheme of things neither perhaps mean anything. One of my old MH's got a green ribbon one weekend and the next day he grabbed it off the table and chewed it to a million pieces. Guess I learned what he thought of that judges decision...

    /Paul
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  5. #115
    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    QA2? Yes! After all they do give an official "JH."
    John Lash

    "If you run Field Trials, you learn to swallow your disappointment quickly."

    "Field trials are not a game for good dogs. They're for great dogs with great training." E. Graham

  6. #116
    Senior Member Jerry S.'s Avatar
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    A green ribbon means more to a person that trains their own dog.
    A green ribbon that has a pro train their dog makes a person wonder if:
    1. Their dog is that good.
    2. Their pro is that good.
    3. Their own handling of their own dog is that good.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry S. View Post
    A green ribbon means more to a person that trains their own dog.
    A green ribbon that has a pro train their dog makes a person wonder if:
    1. Their dog is that good.
    2. Their pro is that good.
    3. Their own handling of their own dog is that good.

    No reason to get into the "I care more about my dog's work because I trained it" mode.

    I know pros that are delighted when their dog gets its first green ribbon - it's a sign of good things to come. The more you finish, the more you place, the more you place, the more you win. It's part of the journey.

    My dog's are pro trained. But, I can vividly recall my first green ribbon in the open. It was with Ace (Sky Hy Husker Power) as a three year old at the Fall 2001 Rocky Mountain Retriever Club trial. Ace began finishing, placing, and winning. He retired with his FC/AFC. And that green ribbon meant the world to me.
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  8. #118
    Senior Member Steve Amrein's Avatar
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    I hope I am not swerving off in a ditch but .... If the green means nothing to someone that is a serious FT'r could that be listed in the catalog so as to save the judges time and save the cost of a wasted ribbon? I hope I read some of the above comments wrong.
    "Communism only works in Heaven, where they don't need it, and in Hell, where they already have it" Ronald Reagan

  9. #119
    Senior Member Jerry S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Amrein View Post
    I hope I am not swerving off in a ditch but .... If the green means nothing to someone that is a serious FT'r could that be listed in the catalog so as to save the judges time and save the cost of a wasted ribbon? I hope I read some of the above comments wrong.
    Yeah but they only cost $4.00.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Sabireley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Lash View Post
    QA2? Yes! After all they do give an official "JH."
    Maybe we can add a number behind JH too. 100 JH passes = JH100 ; )

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