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Thread: First Big D.....Now Heart of Texas

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper View Post
    This is copied and pasted from the history of hunt tests from the AKC web page.
    In the 1980s hunters with good retrievers, but without the resources, or time, to be able to be competitive in field trials were anxious to have an avenue to test their dogs for hunting abilities.
    What the hell happened?
    When you watch Duck Dynasty you want to take up duck hunting. When you take up duck hunting you want to get a dog. When you get a dog he eats your wife's shoes. When he eats your wife's shoes you call a trainer. When you call a trainer he gets your dog to the Master level. When he gets to the master level you want to run the Master National. When you want to run the Master National no one can get into tests. Don't not get into tests, get Direct TV!

  2. #132
    Senior Member achiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    I said it before(most of this had already been hashed out in the deleted thread) but I'll say it again. A hunt test should NEVER favor a pro over an amateur handler...NEVER. I'm not anti pro at all but it wasn't the intent of the hunt tests, in fact I would argue that the intent was partly to get away from pros all together. Pro's are in the game to stay but to sacrifice any amateur handler that wants to play to allow a pro to run a string of dogs is wrong in every way.
    Fair or not the random draw hurts everyone and still risks leaving the local guy out of his nearby tests
    A limit to the number a handler can enter each day until full would work but some pros may prefer just being all in or all out. Which brings us to the simplest and IMO best way to do it, Owner/amateur/handlers get a day or two to enter before a pro can. That way the amateur gets his 1 or 2 dogs in, then the pros get to see who has the best computer skills. If they don't get in, they move to the next test even if they have to drive to get there instead of only getting a few of their dogs in before it fills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Rosier View Post
    Sheesh, you people are a trip.

    I'm not gonna type all night so I'll be brief. Whether any of you want to admit it or not, Joe is right. Pros drive this sport, fair doesnt have a damn thing to do with anything. Fair doesnt exist in real life. Suck it up buttercup.

    If you're an amateur and don't get your dogs signed up, oh well, go fishing, spend some time with your family, or go train some more.

    Funny story, an AKC test is right in my back yard next month, it filled up on the day it opened and I didnt get signed up, guess what? I'm going fishing that weekend. I think I'll live.......
    Quote Originally Posted by birdboy View Post
    Fact of the matter is, when entries are low who do you call and ask if they can bring a bunch of dogs??? PROS. The pro was born out of necessity, weather it be from lazy owners or poor handlers, there was a need and they filled it. The End. Good Night. PERIOD. Do they do it for free, I'm sure there are pro bono cases they accept from time to time. But the same bills y'all cry about having to work to pay and can't watch EE, are the same bills they are working to pay.


    Sorry Chris and Blaine, I'm running chubby in the test Chris couldn't get in. Who'd a thunk it? An am got registered for a master test, I'll be danged!

    I've come up with a solution...no tests west of Mississippi or north of Tennessee. Apparently no means are available to pull it off outside that boundary
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Isn't that what most ams with pros do?

    /paul

    sorry trying to stay out of this discussion but I think your missing a point
    I must be missing some point but I don't think I've missed THE point. A hunt test filled up in EIGHT minutes and something like 10 amateurs got in. Anyone that thinks that isn't a problem is really missing THE point. Go fishing, fine but how many tests will you miss before you finally realize that maybe, just maybe there is a problem? I'm not anti pro, I've paid pros(more than I'd like to know), but as I said before, the amateur/handler should always get priority in a hunt test. Nobody, repeat, NOBODY has said that pros should be eliintated. Putting your head in the sand because it hasn't affected you yet is something I don't understand. If your club members like the way it is and don't have any problems then keep going as is but you don't think clubs should have the option to address the issues they are dealing with?
    So one more time, and this time maybe all you guys poo pooing the discussion can tell me why this is a bad idea, let the clubs have the option to allow amateur/handlers to enter the first day or two and then open it to pro handlers with multiple dogs.
    "The thing I admire about the rat tail is that it takes commitment. It's not like one day you just decide you want one, you have to grow out that bad boy and you have to repeatedly convince the hairdresser to trust you because it's a great idea."

  3. #133
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    I am curious as to how many clubs are NOT MN clubs? I ran at a club last year that was not MN and it had great grounds, judges, and help. The entries seemed fine and there was a good mixture of pros and ams...
    Greg Bell

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeOverby View Post
    To answer your question simply...yes. it would be fair...it ain't the pros fault I didn't do my job and so he should have to give up his spots. And yes, daddy hates socialism...and it ain't crony capitalism...its free market capitalism...but then I don't expect you to understand that.
    And, you have taken my while argument to mean that its about me...quite the contrary, I am simply taking the side of the pro...the fact that I happen to be one has no bearing on my argument whatsoever. It seems to be your intent to goad me into an argument over my stance on the subject rather than propose any form of solution. It is my belief that the responsibility lies with the club and that the answer is no limits. I am allowed to have and voice those. You don't have to agree, you don't have to like it...but don't tell me im wrong because we don't share the same idealogy. And don't try and turn this thing into a political debate for your own entertainment. You know good and well the socialism argument was metaphorically speaking. But I see since you have no smart remark to that by which to defend yourself youd rather pick at me about my political leanings. Nice try. Now, unless you have anything worth contributing go back to your hole.
    Hey Joe, what color is the sky in your world??

    I'm gonna type this real slow; so maybe you can keep up. OK?

    Did you see that part in my post where it said others had a better network? That network may have given them inside info as to opening time that allowed those in their network to get the jump on others and take advantage of that short 8 minute window of opportunity to get entered. Additionally a lone Amatuer doesn't have a "network of clients" to monitor EE in order to jump on and enter quickly. Although you accuse us of being socialists, we may actually be Capitalists who are gainfully employed when the magic opening time arrives. Do you still think its fair??

    Besides that I thought that the criterea for attaining a Master pass was the dog and handlers abilities; NOT the computer or networking skills of the dogs owner or Pro. In Joe's self involved myopic world will computer skills and "Networking" now become a primary factor to attain a MH title on your dog?

    Joe it was you, not me that introduced political terms into this thread. I'd prefer to leave that over on the POTUS page. However I can't help but comment that in these doggy games we play that the clubs and AKC are in effect the government. Your solution to the problem is "NO LIMITS" Once again Joe; What color is the sky in your world?? Kind of sounds like a Socialistic entitlement mentality to me, Joe

    Your "NO LIMITS policy would mean that the clubs would have to provide unlimited resources for your needs. If they need to add 2 or 3 more flights to accomodate the Joe Overby's of the world, then so be it. If the 5 members of our HT Committee have to give up their Memorial Day weekend in order to put on a one flight Master;{and not even be allowed to run a dog}, well thats OK in Joe's world. If Joe's world require 3 flights then 15 schmucks like me would be forced to give up their free to time to give to JOE
    But it would be Socialism to make that pro give up one of his 30 slots to allow that unpaid working member the opportunity to run his dog. Thats "taking from one to give to another". But asking me and other club members to give our time so as to allow you to run your 30 dogs is doesn't offend your anti Socialistic views??? To me that sounds an awful lot like socialism.
    Were you named after Stalin

    Have a good Day Comrade

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeOverby View Post
    Oh and to answer your question about what we'd do if our test was bigger?? We're adding 2 more flights of finished this fall to accommodate an ever growing event and sport. If need be we will lease more land to be able to hold the event. If need be, we will find another, completely different venue more suitable for the event. Our participants have spoken and so long as they are willing to support us we will do anything possible to hold a test and not turn them away.
    I wished I lived where you live. Joe
    However I'm forced to live in the land of reality. I checked, but all of the real estate in Joe's Pie in the Sky Land is taken

    However, In the world of reality where I, {and most people} reside resources are finite

    In the days preceding AKC clubs being allowed to limit entries, it was common place for people to enter on the last day. That would mean it would be Tuesday morning; or 11 days prior to the test before you would know how many entries you had. In Joes Pie in the Sky Land it may be possible to go out and lease grounds, find suitable water, acquire birds, get judges, acquire extra help, equipment etc nearby on 11 days notice. However here in reality land that is a VERY tall order.

    In light of the fact that you are hosting an HRC test where you allow walkup entries on the day of the event I'm even more impressed that you have the ability to do all that with no lead time.

    Here in reality land we struggle with finite resources that sometimes hinder our ability to meet your "NO LIMITS" capabilities.
    That damn finite resources is a real headache for us sometimes Joe
    In the words of Margaret Thatcher; "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

    Have a good day Komrade

  6. #136
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    ...
    In light of the fact that you are hosting an HRC test where you allow walkup entries on the day of the event I'm even more impressed that you have the ability to do all that with no lead time.

    ....
    Have a good day Komrade
    I'd like to hear Komrad Josef's views on HRC being able to limit how many dogs one handler can run?
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  7. #137
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    I'd like to hear Komrad Josef's views on HRC being able to limit how many dogs one handler can run?

    Here ya go Julie, he already shared his wisdom on that very subject from page 5 just another ME ME ME post



    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Caswell View Post
    12 is too many, thats why we limit ours to 8, and common sense tells me that you can't effectively judge more than 30 dogs in a one day test.

    Joe wrote
    We fought for years, tooth and nail, to fill up our flights and not lose money on every test we put on. 12 isn't enough. I'd let one pro have an entire flight so long as he'd bring an assistant to take care of his honoring and bye dog issues. If the hrc would allow 15 dogs I'd give 2 pros one flight and let it run itself. I'd bet my life savings it would finish first and be the smootjest run flight on the grounds. And yes, you can effectively judge more than 30 dogs. With 2 flights in one day an hrc judge sees approx 60 a day...WITH breakdown and setup from land to water and vice versa. If you never had to move and dont mis-manage your time its no problem to see 75 a day. I've seen 90 done in 1 8hr day last fall at cooper river. It was a good test too. I'm telling you, limiting the pros ain't gonna get it. They fund this whole deal whether you want to admit it or not.

  8. #138
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    OK Mark. One suggestion was to let folks sign up their dogs and then depending on the number to only take the first 3 or 5 or whatever arbitrary number the club chose to meet the predetermined limit. So if I successfully signed up 10 and then the club went back at took away 5 of my spots and gave them to someone else is that not redistribution?? Another solution was to let folks sign up and then place them in a random lottery draw?? So now, after I've signed up I may not even get an entry while someone else does?? Further, it is taking money out of my pocket to allow someone else an opportunity...sounds like social welfare to me.
    As far as lip service...we put on our test (300+ entries, 7 flights) with 5 small ponds (2 acres or less). We have limited resources. We make it work every year. There are 7 people on our board and we round up another 7-10 in addition to paying the local ROTC to bird boy to put on our entire shindig. Limited resources Mark.
    Hunt tests were not formed to support the professional. Be thankful for whatever dogs you get in. Things change.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 02-25-2014 at 09:08 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  9. #139
    Senior Member JoeOverby's Avatar
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    Hey Mark...no need to type slow...it just takes you longer to not make a point. Nobody made you to join a club. You did on your own accord. So it is socialist of me to expect a club to put on an event with enough entries to accommodate all who wish to enter? It is socialist of ME that your CLUB limits entries which in turn doesn't leave enough room for you and Mr Caswell?? Let me say this real slow for you Mark...so maybe you'll understand. In the real world we do whatever it is that needs to be done to make a test happen and keep our participants coming back. That is the real world. Not my world...not some fantasy world. The real one mark. I'm sorry in your lazy, its not fair, gimme gimme gimme world this may not work. Remember, I didn't ask a damn thing from you...your club advertised a test and I entered...who should your beef be with. Oh..I'm sorry... wait. There's no way you'll be able to fathom an organization your highness is affiliated with could do something wrong. How do I put this....
    You are not a member of my club therefore I haven't asked you to do anything. YOUR club asked for your time not me. I merely paid my money to come run my dog. Not enough spots??? Well by god blame the man who brought the most money to the game...yeah that's the solution. Don't ask your club to open another flight. Don't let your club know you're unhappy with pro bono work..nope...blame the guy who paid for the overhead on the whole deal with his truck of dogs. Then...here's where it gets really good...just take half his entries and give em to other people in the interest of fairness...don't worry, he'll call the people who own those dogs you slighted and explain it all.
    You really do need a helmet and facemask when you go in public.
    Joe Overby
    Candler Creek Retrievers
    www.candlercreekretrievers.com
    GRHRCH UH "Hooch" MH (HRC 1500 pt. club)
    HRCH "Tater" MH

  10. #140
    Senior Member JoeOverby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    I'd like to hear Komrad Josef's views on HRC being able to limit how many dogs one handler can run?
    Thanks Todd, but I'm capable of speaking for myself. Julie, I HATE the limit. The funniest part of this whole argument is for years HRC clubs have been screaming "the akc doesn't limit pros, look at their entries" and "they close 2 weeks prior to the event with NO walkups...and they are always full and we know how many we have" and "every weekend we compete with an akc test we lose money"...it ain't that one is better than another...the akc is just better at making money than its dirtneck brethren. As a club, we especially cater to the pros to bring trucks full so we don't have to worry about the bottom line. Like Todd was so kind enough to repost if they'd let me fill a flight with one or 2 pros I wouldn't have to babysit it. In my unrealistic land of just get it done id run 10 flights of finished if 8 of em were 16 pros with 15 dogs a piece...but I guess that's where our club differs...Pete, we are thankful for each and every entry....that's why if we can afford it we open it.
    Joe Overby
    Candler Creek Retrievers
    www.candlercreekretrievers.com
    GRHRCH UH "Hooch" MH (HRC 1500 pt. club)
    HRCH "Tater" MH

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