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Thread: Show vs. Field enlightenment

  1. #41
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swack View Post
    Buzz,

    I was playing the devil's advocate. Several people have commented in various threads that they think show Labs should have to prove they can retrieve to be called a Champion Labrador retriever. Their logic is that the dog's are representing the breed and should be able to do the work.

    Using the same logic, but from the other side of the fence, why shouldn't a field Lab be required to meet some minimum requirements of the standard in order to represent the breed as a Field Champion Labrador retriever. After all, they too are representing the breed.

    If both of these policies were put into practice, I'd bet that show Labs would become better in the field and field Labs would be more likely to meet the basic requirements of the standard.

    Just food for thought.

    Swack
    What exactly does the title FC or AFC mean? In my mind, it only indicates that dogs who earn the title have demonstrated through direct competition that they possess skills and physical attributes, necessary to perform their job in the field, that are superior to their competition. The show folks on the other hand purport to be producing dogs with the physical attributes necessary to be successful in the field, and that dogs who earn the designation CH have by competition shown that they posses those attributes to a degree superior to their competition.

    Field dogs have proven their worth beyond a shadow of a doubt by actually performing the work and being judged to have turned in the best performance. Show dogs on the other hand have proved nothing, they are merely judged posses physical attributes that some folks have decided are the making of a superior field dog.

    I find it offensive to consider denying a dog who has proven his worth a title because he/she doesn't "represent the breed" well when stacked up against a set of standards INVENTED by folks who think they are smart enough to determine what makes a suitable specimen. I see nothing wrong, on the other hand, with requiring folks who believe they know what makes a great specimen to go out and prove their theory with actual results competing against great dogs.

    I've heard the saying, life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
    I prefer, life is too short to hunt over a dog with no talent.
    Last edited by Buzz; 02-24-2014 at 07:35 PM.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

  2. #42
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    I agree with Swack, and...if it had startes 40 years ago, the lack of dual champions the breed is experiencing now would not be so pronounced...

    It is short sighted mindsets such as the one you experss that have paid a large part in getting us to this point.

    john
    The dogs they are putting up as champions bear so little resemblance to the standard, I don't even know how you can begin to claim that the performance people are the problem.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

  3. #43
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    It will be hopefully the younger generation coming up in the ranks that can create change and ask why and why not.

  4. #44
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    Google Hidden Springs Labs, just for starters.. Just a thought

  5. #45
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    I'd be way more okay with there being such a thing as a DC, and no such thing as a CH, than I would with such a thing as a DC, and no such thing as a FC.

    Form follows function.
    Humans attempting to reverse that sequence defies nature, and is essentially bass-ackwards.
    Considering the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity". -Unknown

  6. #46
    Member DrDuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Now I have to say, regardless the feel good story I just told, I think the split between field and show dogs is even larger in Goldens than Labs. Hopefully Leeanne is one of the first pioneers in leading us back to where we came from.
    I agree and there are a number of women in the Kansas City area that belong in that list of pioneers.

  7. #47
    Member DrDuck's Avatar
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    Buzz wrote: "I've heard the saying, life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
    I prefer, life is too short to hunt over a dog with no talent."

    I think it might be even better to say Life is too short to hunt over a poorly trained dog with no talent or style.

    Thinking back I have hunted over a number of ugly dogs who turned out to be worth their weight in gold at the end of a day of hunting. Anyone here ever hunt over a small peek a poo hybrid. I have and it was small, obedient and it pointed and retrieved quail and small ducks with style. He thought he was a fifty pound dog.

    Spencer Tomb
    Last edited by DrDuck; 02-25-2014 at 09:40 AM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    The dogs they are putting up as champions bear so little resemblance to the standard, I don't even know how you can begin to claim that the performance people are the problem.
    Buzz,

    I agree with you completely on this point. No argument from me. Dog shows and their interpretation of the standard has evolved over the years so they are no where near evaluating the traits a Lab needs to perform in the field.

    On the other hand, field trials have also evolved and no longer resemble "an ordinary day in the field" they are intended to represent. They've become a contest for highly specialized and highly trained retrievers. Do they test for the needs of the hunter? Do they mostly reward heritable traits a hunting dog needs or is it more the training they've received? I know it's a combination, but if we're using trials to select breeding stock for the hunter, shouldn't we try to test primarily for heritable traits?

    So, the question in my mind is whether FT competition is still a valid method of selecting for the traits a hunter needs in his retriever. Or has it become such a highly specialized competitive event that it has evolved beyond its original purpose, much like the specialized competition in the show ring?

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

  9. #49
    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    Swack, a valid point. As dogs and methods get better the trials get harder and harder. Way more than the hunter would need. But I think it's fair to say that if a dog's parents can win a Field trial the average guy could teach him to do what he wants as a hunting dog.
    John Lash

    "If you run Field Trials, you learn to swallow your disappointment quickly."

    "Field trials are not a game for good dogs. They're for great dogs with great training." E. Graham

  10. #50
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Lash View Post
    Swack, a valid point. As dogs and methods get better the trials get harder and harder. Way more than the hunter would need. But I think it's fair to say that if a dog's parents can win a Field trial the average guy could teach him to do what he wants as a hunting dog.
    Especially since there is definitely a trend of field trailers favoring the smart, biddable, level headed dog over the out of control fire breather. I don't own a FC or AFC, but I have hunted with some. And the QAA dogs I own are a pure pleasure to share a days hunt with.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

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