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Thread: Limits: discussion from a practical aspect

  1. #1
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    Default Limits: discussion from a practical aspect

    We have seen a plethora of solutions & arguments for and against each. Everything from pro vs amateur to lottery systems to entry in steps.

    Clubs limit because of lack of volunteers, lack of grounds or not wanting to deal with the hassle of last minute splits & partially full flights (money). The last two are not going to change. The first has a solution=more volunteers.

    What does it take from a volunteer standpoint to put on another Master test?
    2 judges (thanks to their tireless dedication to the game=readily available)
    3 marshals (ideal)
    4 flyer shooters (to allow breaks)
    4 hired bird technicians

    My question: Can a club expand limits to add another Master flight? Or does the AKC not allow this?

    In the cases of filling a flight in less than 24 hours an ample amount of time is available. If a club chair had 10-15 new volunteers willing to work 2 days would they consider opening another flight? My guess is that most clubs want more participation rather than less. If there are enough dogs to fill another flight then we are back to lack of grounds.
    Mark Land

  2. #2
    Senior Member MikeBoley's Avatar
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    I would bet most clubs struggle with lack of quality grounds esp. water to add additional flights.
    'I make my practices real hard because if a player is a quitter, I want him to quit in practice, not in a game.' - Bear Bryant / Alabama

  3. #3
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    Yes sir! Lack of grounds is a serious issue. Especially water. However, all of these clubs held tests prior to limits.
    Mark Land

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    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Well, since we're just brainstorming, let me throw this out there. And no, I have not put a lot of thought into it.

    Let's take the emphasis off "pros" (read: those with a large number of entries) and focus on the test itself. What if every Master National Club were required to put on one test per year that did NOT qualify for MN. This could be one of their customary 2 per year OR it could be in addition. Club's choice.

    This would drastically thin out the entries at those tests and provide an opportunity for those who are just chasing the MH and not interested in the National test. Opportunities for those wanting to qualify for the MN would be fewer, but that might be a good thing, IMO. Maybe there wouldn't be 700 or 800 dogs qualifying each year and those that need a dozen tries to qualify will just have to try again next year. (There ARE some who think the MN is in danger of losing some prestige as more and more dogs are qualifying.)

    Yes, it would take some amending of other AKC rules but it might be a good thing all around. OR ... as I said, I haven't put a lot of thought into it.

    JS
    Last edited by JS; 02-24-2014 at 11:31 AM.
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    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    Lack of water and manpower seem to be the kicker for most clubs that want limits.
    Wm. Mark Edwards
    Pascagoula, MS

    HRCH (500) UH Ellie Mae MH
    SHR Tipsy

  6. #6

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    Prior to the 2013 rule change allowing limited entries does anyone know if there was ever a MH test that was cancelled because of too many entries and all the logistics that go with it? Were there any handlers that didn't get to finish a MH test because of the same? If so how often did this happen?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    We have seen a plethora of solutions & arguments for and against each. Everything from pro vs amateur to lottery systems to entry in steps.

    Clubs limit because of lack of volunteers, lack of grounds or not wanting to deal with the hassle of last minute splits & partially full flights (money). The last two are not going to change. The first has a solution=more volunteers.

    What does it take from a volunteer standpoint to put on another Master test?
    2 judges (thanks to their tireless dedication to the game=readily available)
    3 marshals (ideal)
    4 flyer shooters (to allow breaks)
    4 hired bird technicians

    My question: Can a club expand limits to add another Master flight? Or does the AKC not allow this?
    In the cases of filling a flight in less than 24 hours an ample amount of time is available. If a club chair had 10-15 new volunteers willing to work 2 days would they consider opening another flight? My guess is that most clubs want more participation rather than less. If there are enough dogs to fill another flight then we are back to lack of grounds.
    I've wondered about that too. I'm pretty new to AKC but I know it's not at all unusual for an HRC club to add a finished flight if they fill up. It would take some juggling but at least you'd be doing it with 4-6 weeks notice rather than the 1 week we had before limits.

    And remember it's not just the Am's that are not getting in. I know of several Pros that have not been able to get dogs into tests they would have liked to run. My dog is pro trained but I run him. I'm not quite ready for a MN just yet but the reality is that when we reach a point where we are ready I will have no choice but to let my pro run him some for me. When you start looking at 6-8 (if you're lucky) weekends at $300 plus just to qualify and then another 10-15 days travel expenses plus entry fees to run MN it's just more economical to send him with a pro. Even if money were no issue, I don't have enough vacation time to run him myself.

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  8. #8
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    We have seen a plethora of solutions & arguments for and against each. Everything from pro vs amateur to lottery systems to entry in steps.

    Clubs limit because of lack of volunteers, lack of grounds or not wanting to deal with the hassle of last minute splits & partially full flights (money). The last two are not going to change. The first has a solution=more volunteers.

    What does it take from a volunteer standpoint to put on another Master test?
    2 judges (thanks to their tireless dedication to the game=readily available)
    3 marshals (ideal)
    4 flyer shooters (to allow breaks)
    4 hired bird technicians

    My question: Can a club expand limits to add another Master flight? Or does the AKC not allow this?

    In the cases of filling a flight in less than 24 hours an ample amount of time is available. If a club chair had 10-15 new volunteers willing to work 2 days would they consider opening another flight? My guess is that most clubs want more participation rather than less. If there are enough dogs to fill another flight then we are back to lack of grounds.
    Yes it can be done with AKC approval (which isn't too hard to get). It has been done in the past. However, I don't know how big a deal this really is. Most clubs set the limits for a good reason.)

    One Idea that may help would be to allow Mater only events. Currently by the rules you have to have at least one other test level offered. Obviously that other test level uses club resources that could be used for another master flight.

    The rule was in place to prevent Confirmation clubs to put on Junior only events.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Clubs are still bound by the AKC's mandatory split rules, so if it's a 2 day MH with over 60 dogs, it has to be split into two flights. Let's say the club does have the resources and land to run 2 master flights. I can't imagine the club would chose 120 as a limit and have to split it over running 2 separate 60 dog limit tests. With two separate tests rather than one that is split in 2 flights, the club gets twice the money. Both need 2 different sets of judges, workers, grounds, equip. etc. but in the case of the two separate tests, twice the money is pulled in for 2 entry fees. And, people love the chance to get 2 passes on the weekends. So that's something to consider....
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  10. #10
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    The FT rules have a provision where the club can move the Am start to Friday if the entries are greater than 65. The problem with this is that it requires the club to allow anyone the option to run at the regular time. So, if you a club does start on Friday, finshes the land marks and maybe starts the land blind, it has to go run land marks again on Saturday, so it isn't really workable.

    What if in HTs, you allowed a HT that filled its limit before the close to increase the limit and move to a 3 day master and anyone that didn't want to run starting on Friday could scratch? It would take adjustments but it is easier to make them in advance than to deal with it with two weeks before the event.

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