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Thread: Training programs

  1. #1
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    Default Training programs

    Alright, first off I'm not trying to start an entertainment thread or an argument. All I'm wondering is what is the best program or programs to use for "Amish" or non-electric training? All I'm looking for is a dog to be my family's buddy and retrieve the ducks I shoot. I'm also open on any tips whatsoever on training being as this will be my first time trying on a pup. I am most likely getting a lab but I have some heard some good things about GSPs and they have my attention. Anyone have any experience with GSPs (german shorthaired pointer)?


    thanks
    Last edited by Flduck33; 02-26-2014 at 11:17 AM. Reason: wrong word

  2. #2
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Check out

    Training your Retriever by James lamb Free

    The Labrador Shooting Dog by Mike Gould

    Hey Pup Fetch it up by Bill Tarrant

    and Retriever Training a Back to Basics approach by Robert Milner

    Mr. Milner also has a new training method at https://www.excellentgundog.com/ I haven't had the chance to check it out yet, but it is available of you want it.

    I would recommend reading all four of those books as they each offer valuable insights on dog training particularly in the manner your interested in.
    Ole and Sven are quietly sitting in a boat fishing, chewing and drinking beer when suddenly Sven says, 'I think I'm gonna divorce my wife - she ain't spoke to me in over 2 months.' Ole sips his beer and says, 'Better think it over...women like that are hard to find.'

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    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    I'd recommend two sources; first "Working Gundogs: An Introduction to Training and Handling" by Martin Deeley. Martin is a British guy currently living in Florida; the book is angled towards US requirements for retrievers and has a wealth of sensible instructions and some good diagrams. Martin learned his trade in UK and has excellent presentation skills. Second "The Wildrose Way, Retriever Training" DVD is also a useful presentation, but isn't IMO very good on the basic discipline and obedience tasks (few of the published programs are). It does however demonstrate a form of Force Fetch which you may consider "pressure".

    With regards to the last, non-pressure training is IMO something of a myth. Very often folks use the term as an antonym for "e-collar training" without realising that simply removing a collar from a training regime does not automatically reduce pressure or physical correction from the scene. Nor does non collar training imply an inferior performance is to be accepted or expected.

    Joining a training group is also a big help; having extra eyes and experience available can make a sometimes bumpy road a bit smoother. You'll also get a lot out of it socially.

    Eug



    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 02-25-2014 at 05:46 AM.
    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

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    Senior Member Rick S's Avatar
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    My first question would be why no pressure? I was in the same boat when i started out, until I took the time to learn how to properly use the collar. It's an extremely valuable tool, and once properly trained is rarely needed, but is always available if needed. I strongly suggest watching a few bill hillman videos and learn what he calls the "soft collar" method. My dog practically does back flips when he hears the sound of the collar turning on. I'm not trying to debate with you, but just wanted to give you my perspective. Good luck whichever route you go!

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    Senior Member Mike Tome's Avatar
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    "Amish" training is not no-pressure training. Amish just implies no electricity. We have one of the best Amish trainers that i know of in our Northern Piedmont Retriever Club in Frank Plewa, and believe me, there are times when pressure is involved, its just not delivered with an e-collar.
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    I have been happy with milner's excellent gun dog site for training my lab. He gives you a good background of the science, logic, and past uses of operant conditioning. It gives you a framework for training your dog.

    Now I tried to train my golden the same way, but I don't think it was effective enough or I wasn't patient enough. I have switched him from milner to Hilmann training programs and he is responding well.

    I use to be a firebreathing milner disciple, but the ease of his training style is greatly dependent on the breeding I think. I would look at the parents of whatever pup you want to get and see how they were trained. If you get a pup filled with American field champions and MH in its pedigree that were all trained with Force Fetch and Collar conditioning, I don't think it is wise to expect great results with a different method. I am not saying you cant do it, but when buying a pup I would look in the pedigree for how the predecessors were trained.

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    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    I'm looking for is a dog to be my family's buddy and retrieve the ducks I shoot...........I am most likely getting a lab.

    Good choice. The best program will be the one that allows you to be a teacher. Low pressure, Amish, force based, e-collar all seem to work better for those that focus on teaching. The driving issue will often be "Who can I get to help me with this pup?" That is kind of a loaded question, but there seems to be a lot more experienced retriever trainers that are not Amish.

    The first puppy comes in all warm and fuzzy which makes force programs contrary to the initial reaction of "my little fur ball". They change.....you may, too. However, it will not be anyone's decision, but yours.

    Opinions on the Internet are often less personal. I've attended a few AKC puppy classes where no one was using an e-collar and/or intending to do FF. A lot can be learned by watching others train/play as they work on early OB. Check out those classes and visit a hunt club. See "stuff" in action with real people doing "their thing". You will find the first 4-6 months will give you time to get a better focus and become more comfortable with how you need to train.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 02-25-2014 at 12:29 PM.
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    Senior Member waycool's Avatar
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    I've trained a couple GSP's ..ok maybe more than a couple.. but not to retrieve ducks... My advice is if you wish to hunt ducks get a retriever... The difference in eyesight alone is astonishing.. kinda like the difference between the ol foundry on a scent/treeing hound and a Labrador... There is no comparison..

    Not saying they cant do it.. just say'n .. now if you primarily hunt upland birds and secondarily hunt ducks.. .. eh.. maybe.. I've also seen great upland retrievers they just don't point like a GSP... (notice I didn't "go there").

    Ok.. flame retardant suit on... so the NAVHDA folks can have at it..

    I'm just not one to have a dog that is half fast at everything YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tome View Post
    "Amish" training is not no-pressure training. Amish just implies no electricity. We have one of the best Amish trainers that i know of in our Northern Piedmont Retriever Club in Frank Plewa, and believe me, there are times when pressure is involved, its just not delivered with an e-collar.
    Sorry that is what i meant. I edited the initial post.

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