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Thread: Michael Ellis - New DVD

  1. #81
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    But...but, the Koehler folks think highly of him, whether it's for retriever titles trained up to, down to or the "Sit Means Sit" decals on his shiny Humvee that he arrived in for hunt tests...

    MG
    80 franchises nationwide. He might not be doing so well with a retriever but he's doing SOMETHING right.
    Darrin Greene

  2. #82
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    80 franchises nationwide. He might not be doing so well with a retriever but he's doing SOMETHING right.
    Do I infer that you're in there bidding for No. 81, Darrin?

    MG

  3. #83
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    I should note Hassen and Ellis are COMPLETELY different training styles. Hassen focuses primarily on the e-collar while Ellis is a much more balanced approach. Ellis is very consistent to the methods used by retriever folks. There's no big miracle here but I have used Ellis's communication approach with my latest dog and she responds extremely well to it.
    Darrin Greene

  4. #84
    Senior Member Jay Dufour's Avatar
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    There always seems to be a svengali type coming up the pike that markets to animal fancier peeps , that has a way to train easier , faster, and with less or no force. When they consistently win American Field Trials,they will gain the attention of the players of the game.Until then, well, its entertaining to see what they are selling.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Marissa E.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Dufour View Post
    There always seems to be a svengali type coming up the pike that markets to animal fancier peeps , that has a way to train easier , faster, and with less or no force. When they consistently win American Field Trials,they will gain the attention of the players of the game.Until then, well, its entertaining to see what they are selling.
    I agree.

    That being said I enjoy learning, watching, listening.
    You don't have to like every trainer and every method. Just because you watch someone or something doesn't mean you must become it. Sometimes I learn just as much 'why that won't work for me' as I do 'that will work for me'.

    This thread got waayyy off topic. If you don't like his methods or his ideas no one is forcing you to buy into them.
    It's very simple, just don't buy his new DVD. It's not that tough.

    The OP was simply bringing this up for those who wish to look into other ideas, or those who already like his stuff, or those looking into other, different, trainers. I don't see any harm in that.

    And I don't see how her opinion on 2 or 4 quadrant training, her opinion on FF, or pressure vs praise has anything to do with the original topic lmao

    Marissa Everett

    Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

  6. #86
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    A quick search of Entry Express says he's on his third dog now and is still struggling to get SH passes. It appears the first two dogs didn't title and have quit.
    He started retriever experimentation with the little lab that Unca Jerry Harris gave him in the late 90s.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  7. #87
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    I'm pretty much out on the rest of this conversation but just can't let this go. The fact that you think that "(always pick up on the retrieve)" is the "desired result" of FF shows blatantly how little you know and understand about current retriever training practices. FF is a rung of the ladder, a very low one, that would make getting to the top of the ladder very tough if it were removed. I'm positive I could get most dogs to retrieve using cookies but that is NOT my desired result. What I want is a dog that can handle a long crosswind water blind with an angle entry and two points to cross in route and a cookie ain't gonna get us there.
    Believe it or not there are some very successful FT people that do not teach FF this way---the break them down, build them back up method. At least that is what I think you are talking about (apologies in advance if I misunderstand).

    The only reason I chimed in on this thread is that people were talking about open mindedness. More than one way to skin a cat.

    The Hillman stuff teaches fetch, then reinforce, with the ecollar, for example. None of the battle of wills stuff that I presume you are talking about with the ladder analogy. Although the ladder is a great analogy of how the steps of basics proceed.

    I have one 3 year old lab that I trained this way, my first dog, me no expert. While I'm not a poster child for success (though I'm not a disaster either), I'm pretty sure there are some FCs out there that have been trained using this technique.

    I add this in the interest of discussion.
    Renee P

  8. #88
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatzby View Post
    If I told my children to clean their room and they didn't???? First I would ascertain why they didn't than I would use the proper response. If they didn't understand the request I would simplify and build till I received the proper response. If they understood but chose not to out of laziness, stubbornness, or as a challenge to authority I would certainly apply force. Dang this sounds like dog training.
    Steve
    The kids are supposed to have more brains than dogs. Don't simplify just tell them to do it!
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    Uncle Ray

  9. #89
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdluck View Post
    You Fool! read post above. 1 WAY. 1 WAY ONLY!
    What side did you get out of bed today!! I am not sure I agree with you!!!
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA
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    "Knowing how important right timing is in accomplishing right actions"
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  10. #90
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    You really think that, Pete? As opposed to other gundog or pointer disciplines that are shall we say hidebound with their notions of "force breaking" and not even having a dog retrieve what's been shot over it? Hmm, those close-minded retriever trainers...

    And WAY behind in puppy development? - maybe you're talking about the pros who don't get a puppy until six months old? Or would it be some of us amateurs - yeah, who train our own dogs - and who wait 'til the pups are 8 weeks old in exposing them to birds

    Let me clarify Mike
    the retriever world are all people who train retrievers. Out of all those people few develop a young dogs focus and ability to figure out how to get what they desire
    I'm not talking about throwing birds for pups or teaching them to sit or return to heel or whatever. I think most people do it this way. However most do not teach a dog how to focus singularly let alone duel or triple focus. They do not teach the dog how to think and how to get what they desire.
    My case and point.
    I have been around hunt tests for well over 25 years and I can count on 1 hand the dogs at the JR. that could focus and perform the desired behaviors properly by 6 -9 months . I count myself in this category up until 5 or 6 years ago. Pro's that get dogs at 6 or 7 months have missed the window of opportunity. They have to do things the way they do them because of economics of the client. A large portion of their clientele have not done the best that can be done with a pup until they send their dog off. I don't care how great that dog becomes,,it would be greater if it had a puppy development program. Simply teaching a dog a few commands and throwing birds for it doesn't compare to what I'm talking about.
    I am talking about development . It is totally different .

    Pat Nolan ,,would be a good example of puppy development,,there are others,,just off the top of my head
    Pip Pip O chap
    I always wanted to say that HAAA!
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 03-05-2014 at 12:16 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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